#hierarchy

I hope when all of this goes down Aetna takes a good hard look at the multitude of layers of management. My friend is a lead director. Ready for this? Above her- AVP, VP, Sr. VP, EVP & COO, EVP & President, Chairman. I mean seriously what do the 4 layers above her even do?

My SVP has about 600 directs. There are way more senior directors and managers than actual employees who do ALL the work. I’m not exaggerating. I’ve just spent an hour on teams browsing the organizational structure and I’m in shock.

Only the employees (analysts, consultants) got laid off in the recent layoffs in my org, not a single director or VP btw.

One of the senior directors had 7 directs, she has now 1. Her direct is also a director. I know them both, they spend whole days on meetings providing amazing “insights”. All the meaningful projects they were involved in are long dead, because employees are gone.

201 types of managers. 47 meetings. 19 approval chains. 12 PowerPoints.

1 technical guy doing the actual work. 💀

1. Engineering Manager
2. Senior Engineering Manager
3. Software Development Manager
4. Hardware Engineering Manager
5. Technical Manager
6. Systems Engineering Manager
7. Infrastructure Manager
8. Cloud Engineering Manager
9. Network Engineering Manager
10. Security Engineering Manager
11. DevOps Manager
12. Site Reliability Engineering Manager
13. Quality Assurance Manager
14. Test Engineering Manager
15. Release Manager
16. Configuration Manager
17. Product Manager
18. Senior Product Manager
19. Group Product Manager
20. Technical Product Manager
21. Product Operations Manager
22. Product Marketing Manager
23. Product Development Manager
24. Product Lifecycle Manager
25. Product Portfolio Manager
26. Project Manager
27. Senior Project Manager
28. Technical Project Manager
29. IT Project Manager
30. Engineering Project Manager
31. Program Manager
32. Senior Program Manager
33. Technical Program Manager
34. Engineering Program Manager
35. Global Program Manager
36. Strategic Program Manager
37. Transformation Program Manager
38. Portfolio Manager
39. Delivery Manager
40. Technical Delivery Manager
41. Service Delivery Manager
42. Agile Delivery Manager
43. Scrum Manager
44. PMO Manager
45. Operations Manager
46. Business Operations Manager
47. Technical Operations Manager
48. IT Operations Manager
49. Network Operations Manager
50. Cloud Operations Manager
51. Data Center Operations Manager
52. Security Operations Manager
53. Sales Operations Manager
54. Revenue Operations Manager
55. Customer Operations Manager
56. Customer Success Manager
57. Customer Experience Manager
58. Customer Support Manager
59. Technical Support Manager
60. Customer Service Manager
61. Customer Engagement Manager
62. Customer Relationship Manager
63. Customer Escalation Manager
64. Customer Advocacy Manager
65. Account Manager
66. Key Account Manager
67. Strategic Account Manager
68. Enterprise Account Manager
69. Global Account Manager
70. Partner Account Manager
71. Channel Account Manager
72. Sales Manager
73. Regional Sales Manager
74. Territory Sales Manager
75. Enterprise Sales Manager
76. Inside Sales Manager
77. Business Development Manager
78. Partner Development Manager
79. Channel Development Manager
80. Alliance Manager
81. Strategic Alliance Manager
82. Vendor Manager
83. Supplier Relationship Manager
84. Procurement Manager
85. Supply Chain Manager
86. Logistics Manager
87. Inventory Manager
88. Manufacturing Manager
89. Production Manager
90. Facilities Manager
91. Workplace Manager
92. Office Manager
93. Administrative Manager
94. Resource Manager
95. Capacity Manager
96. Workforce Manager
97. Talent Acquisition Manager
98. Recruitment Manager
99. Human Resources Manager
100. People Operations Manager
101. Talent Management Manager
102. Performance Management Manager
103. Learning and Development Manager
104. Training Manager
105. Organizational Development Manager
106. Change Management Manager
107. Employee Experience Manager
108. Employee Engagement Manager
109. Compensation Manager
110. Benefits Manager
111. Payroll Manager
112. Finance Manager
113. Accounting Manager
114. Financial Planning Manager
115. Budget Manager
116. Risk Manager
117. Compliance Manager
118. Audit Manager
119. Governance Manager
120. Legal Operations Manager
121. Contract Manager
122. Commercial Manager
123. Pricing Manager
124. Revenue Manager
125. Marketing Manager
126. Digital Marketing Manager
127. Content Marketing Manager
128. Brand Manager
129. Campaign Manager
130. Growth Marketing Manager
131. Demand Generation Manager
132. Field Marketing Manager
133. Events Manager
134. Communications Manager
135. Public Relations Manager
136. Community Manager
137. Social Media Manager
138. Data Analytics Manager
139. Data Engineering Manager
140. Data Science Manager
141. Business Intelligence Manager
142. Database Manager
143. Data Governance Manager
144. AI Engineering Manager
145. Machine Learning Manager
146. Automation Manager
147. Innovation Manager
148. Research and Development Manager
149. Strategy Manager
150. Corporate Strategy Manager
151. Business Transformation Manager
152. Digital Transformation Manager
153. Process Improvement Manager
154. Continuous Improvement Manager
155. Knowledge Management Manager
156. Incident Manager
157. Problem Manager
158. Change Manager
159. Service Management Manager
160. IT Service Manager
161. Service Desk Manager
162. Escalation Manager
163. Crisis Management Manager
164. Business Continuity Manager
165. Disaster Recovery Manager
166. Information Security Manager
167. Cybersecurity Manager
168. Identity and Access Management Manager
169. Vulnerability Management Manager
170. Threat Intelligence Manager
171. Privacy Manager
172. Enterprise Architecture Manager
173. Solutions Engineering Manager
174. Solutions Delivery Manager
175. Customer Solutions Manager
176. Technical Account Manager
177. Customer Adoption Manager
178. Customer Onboarding Manager
179. Partner Success Manager
180. Partner Operations Manager
181. Regional Operations Manager
182. Global Operations Manager
183. Cross-Functional Program Manager
184. Stakeholder Management Manager
185. Executive Operations Manager
186. Strategic Initiatives Manager
187. Business Planning Manager
188. Organizational Effectiveness Manager
189. Corporate Development Manager
190. Integration Manager
191. Merger and Acquisition Integration Manager
192. Global Services Manager
193. Professional Services Manager
194. Managed Services Manager
195. Consulting Manager
196. Implementation Manager
197. Deployment Manager
198. Migration Manager
199. Transition Manager
200. Relationship Manager
201. Sales Enablement Manager

I say we implement a new rule: for every regular employee who is laid off, one manager has to go as well. We have so many mangers that I honestly don't see an issue with this. And maybe, just maybe, we'd actually be able to get rid of some actual fat for once.

Every group seems to have an absurd number of people managing other people instead of getting anything done. Cut down the hierarchy and let the employees breathe for once.

My experience with Cisco management has been that protecting the existing hierarchy matters more than helping employees succeed. I've watched good people get stuck while management keeps doing the same thing. If your goal is to advance your career, tough luck.

For too long, they had layers on top of layers of reporting lines for the ‘CISO’ that made no sense. His title wasn’t even a CISO but a VP, that reports to a VP that reports to a VP. That made no sense. Now, hes the CISO of a company that will see his value.

Let’s use this thread to discuss how many layers of management are between you and the CEO. Then also mention how many direct reports each manager has.

I will start. There are 7 layers of management between me and the CEO. My manager has 3-4 direct reports. His boss has 3 direct reports. His bosses boss has 2-3 direct reports. His bosses bosses boss has 2 direct reports. Above that guy? 3-4 reports again. If we use simple Graph Theory with rooted trees, and stochastic branching processes. We can extrapolate that no level of management is doing much. If you cannot understand what I’m talking about. Well that will tell you where this company is going.

How can a company be financially viable when every level of management, which I looked up from a lowly tech to the ceo is 7 levels, which even my 1st level has only 8 employees. Industry standard is 18-25 (even at other industries) it’s the same, and above that 2-7 have 1-3 employees under them! The company cannot be financially responsible with so few reports under each layer, it is irresponsible to allow such a financial travesty to continue! Each layer should have 8-10 reports as a minimum! Go look at other industries including ATT or Frito Lay! Look it up it’s insane, this good ole boy days of butt kissing to get a made up position to check off one box are over, they expect the techs in the field to be super universal techs, then also should all levels of management. Let me clean house and pretend I am Elon Musk!

I dare you to go to Workday and peruse some of the ridiculous org charts in certain states. Some of these org charts are ridiculously top heavy…

A scrum master now is having a same title as level 6 analyst.

And then another scrum master is now Director IT project manager.

Level 6 & 7 roles used to be hard earned positions here.

One squad lead is Director while other is Engineering leader.

And a chapter lead is now Director, Engineering.

Explain to me the hierarchy now, it's confusing as fu-k and offensive to see someone who was merely a pencil pusher be in a same title as me...

In what world is this fu--ing fair???

So many layers, so much waste.

We have, by far, the worst recursive management hierarchy in the entire industry.

And they know it.

Zebra became very hierarchical at the Director and VP level several years ago. It’s an acute problem now.

Seems to be deep reluctance to cull the herd of ineffective Directors and VPs, or do away with layers.

For a $6 B company Zebra is ridiculously hierarchical and top heavy these days. It didn’t use to be this way.

Part of the issue is that Zebra leadership felt compelled to promote hordes of the best and brightest, and to promote women and minorities to make a declarative statement as an unapologetic liberal leaning and DEI embracing company.

All well and good but look around today.

Someone please help me understand why there are so many highly paid people with only two or three reports???? It seems like there are at least three more middle layers than needed.

What’s the reason our tech org isn’t centralized like at other companies, and why do we have so many layers of management?

Engineers rolling up to a Supv who rolls up to a Sr Mgr who also has engineers as direct reports. If leaders get one “5” to hand out, who does it go to? Does the Supervisor even get a shot at giving them to their direct reports, or will Sr Mgr get one and hog it for themselves?

Bypassing the thick of L1, L2, L3, L4, L5's above me? And the middle men/women of the DARN and chairman's line?

Jensen Huang runs Nvidia with 60 direct reports, how many does Sassine have?

The upcoming restructuring focuses on removing middle management. If the VP layer is cut while the EVP and Senior Directors stay, the total number of Directors will be reduced to flatten the hierarchy.

A notable portion of self-proclaimed "leaders" are, in fact, insecure and intellectually limited, and they actively suppress genuine talent due to feeling threatened. These managers frequently enforce strict hierarchical adherence and exhibit extreme anxiety when their direct reports communicate with individuals outside their BUs or with higher-ranking personnel.

I heard they cut some of the fat cats at the top of the hierarchy. They are making them reapply for their positions while also providing severance pay? I haven't noticed any of those positions listed either internally or externally. From what I hear, they covet fresh ideas and are looking for external applicants for those positions.

Did they just decide they can manage without the higher salaries at the top? I worked near one of them, and they always seemed to be doing nothing at all, they are from the Maryland area. They complained half the time about their direct report and the other half just looked busy and left early often. I know WIM sales is very heavy with people making too much. Is this a sign of the future? Cut from the top and move down instead of the usual cut from the bottom and gradually move up?

What do these Ford Executives do all day long?

At least half of them don’t even know what it is they are supposed to be doing.

L4 engineer here, just curious why my chapter lead has a VP of architecture as their boss. Whereas other software architects have other bosses. Not sure why.

Not a Bayer employee, just wondering how "Humanocracy" or "DSO" is working out. How does it actually differ from a "traditional hierarchy"?

This isn't meant to jab at anyone...honestly, just want opinions on the CM3s MLs etc.
Has this extra level of management made working in the stores, getting books and things done easier or more complicated?

20 years with company I've always felt my ideas would be heard at any level...As a result I've made incredible impacts and generated value while leveraging cross functional teams.

Last few weeks I've noticed where basically I was told to "stay in my lane" and things are feeling very top down.

Is this the new chevron?