Thoughts/prayers?
49 replies (most recent on top)
@11c "It's a lousy industry to work in if you hate politics, oppose those that vehemently favor profit over people, and simply want to produce a quality product."
I don't think it's accurate to condemn the entire industry. Rather, I would guess the tech industry gives us the chance to build quality products about 10% of the time.
Apple under Steve Jobs enabled people to do the best work of their lives. But in his absence, the company built lousy products and nearly failed.
Sun Microsystems gave really bright people the chance to create great products. They succeeded for a while, but then Sun failed.
In its early years, SAS built really great and innovative products. People in Cary NC did state-of-the-art work, a long time ago.
I don't believe the software industry is any worse than others, even with the changes brought by AI. Life just does not often give us the chance to do our best.
We have to be flexible, willing to change jobs and relocate, and always willing to sacrifice and work hard to reach that goal. And even then, success often depends on luck and timing.
Looking back from retirement, that 10% figure pretty well describes my career. I always tried to do my best work and build quality products. That caused conflicts with SAS managers; but I succeeded about 10% of the time. The rest of the time -- I got paid.
@1ae nah, they didn’t do a buyout because some will gift back by not taking their surplus by 2028. Not me, but I know some who would.
I had a Eureka moment, when pondering why they didn't do a vacation buyout.
After all, with large numbers of people trying to use vacation before it is voided, the
business is sure to have challenges in the relatively short term.
The answer is they don't have to in general, because a lot of this vacation accumulation is from people who likely could retire. Maybe a buyout would entice them, maybe not.
But I could see people retiring / leaving at the end of 2027 and cashing out their ~40 days vs losing them.
And I think that's the plan - self-funded buyouts.
@11c So start a company that doesn’t favor profit over people. See how long you last.
You can certainly do both but it is naive to suggest that a company which favors people over profit is sustainable. You can SAY that when things are good. But when things aren’t good some base level of profitability MUST trump people or else the whole ship goes under.
It’s still a great industry to work in, if you love the work.
It's a lousy industry to work in if you hate politics, oppose those that vehemently favor profit over people, and simply want to produce a quality product.
In the industry, the work can leave one disheartened, unfulfilled, and sad.
And, now, AI.
@kr does this mean maybe a housecleaning of director level and up? Because that would be amazing. Let's do it G money!
Probably not Casey’s idea. Unlimited vacation policies have become common across the tech industry. Anyone at SAS could have known about them.
Between outsourcing and AI, tech is not the golden ticket it used to be. It’s still a great industry to work in, if you love the work. If you were in it to make money, there were better ways to do that.
@qp fault? It is a business decision. Deal with it.
Or start your own business and set whatever policies you want. I’m sure employees will always agree with them.
Is this Casee McGee's fault?
The same discussion was happening on the internal forum then HR locked the discussion thread. 🤣
@gr It is not a perk, it is a cost saving measure. When I left I got paid out for over a month’s worth of accumulated and unused time off. With the new policy would have been like a week’s worth as an IC and nothing as Director. Director+ has higher salaries so saves on the highest cost group.
At least in California and Colorado, this isn't legal. Once you earn it, they are vested wages, and they can't take them back, have them suddenly disappear mid-employment, or say "use it or lose it". The California Division of Labor Standards Enforcement (DLSE) has made clear that any policy resulting in the loss of earned vacation is unenforceable.
Of course, in NC, they can pretty much do anything. But there are employees in other states with different rules.
Aside from the legality or ethics of this, it seems nothing major will happen until at least 2028? A large scale layoff or buyout in 2027 would cost them more money than doing it 2028. Selling the company (or I imagine the mythical IPO) wouldn't benefit until 2028 when they get the almost $70M liability off the books.
Haha, maybe this all. makes sense in someones spreadsheet. Maybe they will expand Cary Academy into a huge day+boarding school and convert a big chunk of the SAS Cary campus in to Cary Academy facilities. An elite International school for the World's ultra wealthy? which would also allow them to expand the Umstead for the rich parents visiting. Idk but stranger things have happened!
Will trade vacation days for m&ms and a pool and sports activities on the soccer field and a gym, you know, all the things I have never had time to do in more than 12 years of working here.
Can I be a director? My emoji game is so super strong! 🤗😮🥴💀😸👐🏻 I love to say things like GREAT JOB TEAM in Teams chats, the more people in the meeting the better! Teamwork makes the dream work! Go team! Yay team! Woohoo!
Oh and if you need me I'll be taking unlimited vacation days. 🏆
@f8 Directors and VPs at SAS are hardly workaholics. Get a grip. The only ones who appear to be workaholics have just worked here for so long they are part of the scenery, wandering around pretending they do anything other than chirp happily in meetings all day every day.
@a4 Nobody wants to buy this company. Get real. If anyone does it will be for a fire sale price for the code only. He won't sell for a price that's less than he thinks it's worth. Every year that goes by SAS falls further behind its competitors.
@gm I get why the vacation policy changed for non directors. I don’t get why it is different for Directors and up. And I’m not sure unlimited is really a perk.
Hadn’t even thought about whether Distinguished is included in director and up. It should be.
Principal is not generally considered IC version of Director equivalent.
@gm ... more evidence of incompetent decision-making and an organizational structure that is not designed for resilient innovation and growth.
@gj - you asked:
Principal and Senior Principal/Distinguished are respectively at the Director or Senior Director levels yet are ICs. Do they get unlimited PTO?
NO
Principal and Senior Principal/Distinguished are respectively at the Director or Senior Director levels yet are ICs. Do they get unlimited PTO?
They certainly would at any respectable progressive tech company elsewhere.
If they don't, then this underscores a long-standing organizational problem at SAS --placing managers above technical leadership IC levels (mentioned above) and expecting better products and results.
At many tech companies a Principal can only report to a Director or above and a Senior Principal or Distinguished can only report to a Senior Director or above. You must be at least a level peer in the org chart to report somebody.
@eb It’s weird
Is it even legal to take away vacation days that have been earned over the years?
@f4 yes it is absolutely for real. Insulting AF for those of us who are underlings but what else is new?
Unlimited vacation is a known anti-benefit.
If fired, laid off, or let go they owe you nothing. It's also proven that people take less overall vacation when given "unlimited" since the relative goal-post is undefined and competitive amongst coworkers (e.g. Jim only took 10 days and you took 15, sorry you got a worse rating...)
Them prescribing that for Director+ is odd to me, why don't they also fall under the other policy? I assume data says they will take even less vacation since many are workaholics?
They floated the idea of unlimited vacation a few years back and it was resoundingly, and rightfully, rejected overwhelmingly by employees. Unlimited vacation in reality su-ks for conscientious workers and they end up taking less vacation than they would if given a limited amount.
Retiree here. Unlimited vacation for Directors and above??? Is that for real? Or is that an exaggeration? I've never heard of anyone getting unlimited vacation.
Obviously they're going to do a big layoff in 2028. Where else will they get the money to pay all the directors and VPs?
I’m a retiree, but if I were still there I’d be way more concerned about the rollover limit of 5 days than the 20 days for new hires. Actually the latter wouldn’t concern me at all. As for the unlimited vacation for directors and above, the cynical reading would be that it doesn’t matter to the company’s results whether they show up for work or not. 😉
Oh come on ... like it's somehow so bad that someone who had to work for 10 years before they got 20 days are a little miffed that new hires get it immediately?
@ck why are you inferring from my question that I am mad about that? I was just asking the question because it was unclear to me. You are projecting.
@b0 Thanks. So the new policy not only gets debt off the books for potential buyers, but also reduces the cost of layoffs.
And it provides a nice benefit to newer (cheaper) employees.
Cost-cutting three ways. Win - win - win.
@a8 “So this means there is no difference in vacation amount between new hires and those of us who have been here 10+ years?”
And this lessens you in some way? Be happy for them.
I’ve been here far more than 10+ years so does that mean I should get more than you? The two things are unrelated so no. Unless you are into comparing sizes.
@c0 In 2028 use your vacation days. Or don’t.
Big deal.
@by doesn’t take effect until 2028, so nothing imminent.
Usually, this happens when a company is preparing for major layoffs to reduce vacation payout liabilities for affected employees. Microsoft introduced its unlimited vacation policy in early 2023 before announcing major layoffs that same year later. Will SAS be conducting major layoffs soon?
@bm literally my situation.
I retired in April with the full 40 days banked......if I were still there I'd have to take 60 days in 2027
A buyback would cost SAS actual cash. The cost of people taking vacation is much less precise and in a lot of cases costs SAS very little. Some people aren't contributing much to begin with, some people will get the work done no matter what.
"getting debt off the books for potential buyers"
I guess that's the reason. Can't think of any other.
That leaves the question of, why don't they offer a buyback?
A buyback would cost 100% of unused un-carryable vacation. Without a buyback, some people won't use all of theirs, so the cost will be less than 100%. That doesn't seem like a huge savings, though.
Wild they don't offer a buyback program instead. I'll be taking 40+ days of vacation next year