Why does this country allow outsourcing when so many people are unemployed? Other countries require the there citizens are offered the jobs first. So many people just want a job to survive so they will accept low wages and no benefits, driving wages lower and making companies richer. Myself and my wife work full time just to pay the bills. My father was a hard working union guy and my mother didn't have to work, but when you called customer service you got an American. It's the same as the middle east producing a lot of oil to put north american oil companies out of business, killing jobs. Then they lower production and drive the price through the roof. The rich guy isn't hurt paying $5 for a gallon of gas. I switched my cell phone service to AT&T(union workers) as a sign of my protest and it is less expensive. We need to support these American tax paying citizens and I believe it will benifit us all in the long run. A lot of the people I know lost there jobs because of outsourcing and support you. Stay strong!
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@mbg, thank you for your honest and open answer. I really appreciate that. I see where you're coming from, and I hope I've been able to at least get you to consider my points as well. The message has been lost along the way and has turned into a David vs Goliath issue of someone making too much money and it's not fair. You've been very open and you've boiled the issues down to fairness. Which as I told another person is a language I understand and respect. It's time that we all remember what is worth fighting for, and that's our families and their happiness and security. Your salary or Lowells salary aren't important to me. Earn what you can and use it to your benefit. That's where the majority of people will fall in their opinions. I respect your perspective, and I truly appreciate this dialogue!
This thread has really been the classiest thing I've ever read. I wish the negotiators were reading this
@car I completely agree. You've just hit the nail on the head, in that it's not about corporate vs union, or CEO salary vs my salary. It's about doing what is right, and being equitable and fair. That's the message to be spreading, and not focus on the corporate greed message. You've just made the entire union argument in a very human and understanding way, that's all I've been trying to get across in all of my posts. It's not about the CEO salary, or his band of merry men. When that's the main message, it's a form of socialism and I as well as the majority of Americans will never follow that logic. But when it's about the person, and about fairness then you are now speaking in terms that I can respect and identify with. Thank you for your post!
Of course I am happy with the salary, but this strike wasn't really all about "salaries" as the company offered unon members 7.5% raise! This strike is about a reduction in benefits, but also largely about job security, closing down work centers and outsourcing. If salaries was all this was about, we would have accepted it. I have no beef or complaint regarding our salaries and the benefits we had under the previous contracts, in fact they were very very good! The problem is, the company wants to slowly and surely errode all of that.
@niv- I appreciate your thoughts. And I too would like to see America get stronger. I just want it to happen in a way that brings everyone up, and not bring others down. I guess that's the whole basis of my opinion and what I've been trying to convey in my posts. I think the union has some valid points with management, but it's all getting lost in the corporate greed lingo. Fight the fight to better yourself, but not at the expense of others. Focus on the real message so that corporate greed vs union greed isn't the main talking points. When that happens, the real issues get lost. Thank you for your thoughts and for being kind in your post. I really do wish all of you well.
This is the thing, everyone posting on here are my neighbors. They can be little League coaches, fellow church members, and people I see in town. We are all trying to keep our heads above water. I really don't need or deserve Lowell money, but come on, I make money for this company. Let's take care of the employees, wow what a company it could be.
@eup I understand your frustration, and in many ways I can understand and empathize with it. But, let me ask this in all honesty. before the strike, could you say you were satisfied with your salary? I personally am happy with mine and am grateful for it. I have enough to have an enjoyable life, pay my tithe, take care of my family, and enjoy my life. Does the CEO salary matter to me or dictate how happy I am? No, it doesn't. so all I'm saying is that the whole corporate greed message gets watered down and lost in translation. It sounds way too much like socialism, which isn't palatable to the majority of people. If the union has issues, then focus on those. But as it stands now, you have union greed vs corporate greed, and neither will win that fight.
I just want to see everyone in this country become successful instead of the select few trying to rig the game/system against the rest of us, that's all. If you want to call that leveling the playing field, then so be it.
Yoe: yea I agree actually. I don't like what the VZ guy is saying but I can't argue that he's not making since. I stil thinkl madams is an overpayed Baffoon though
To all posting on this thread this is the most intelligent discussion I've ever read on this board. You're actually having a civil conversation respecting each other. Thank you!! I'm enjoying reading your posts
@qux: I hope one day you get a million dollars so that you go and enjoy life. I truly do, as I have zero animosity towards you as an individual. I wish you nothing but success and happiness. But, back to the point. What you've stated in your post is that your standard of living should be the benchmark by which all others live. Using that same argument, if that clerk we've been using as an example makes $25k a year, and he feels his standard of living is what all should live with because it's all he needs to be happy, then should your lifestyle have to change to his? The corporate greed message is all based on what "I think" is right. So then to whom do we defer? Your idea for what the CEO should be happy with? Or the clerks idea of what you should be happy with? Are you willing to take a pay cut and give up benefits simply because those who make less than you feel it's the right thing to do?
"Capitalism intends to have society lift each other up to the next level. Socialism intends to have society pull each other down to a lower level."
When was the last time in this day and age where a CEO of a giant corporation who has gained a huge fortune in this crony capitalist system attempt to lift society as a whole to the next level? All i see is them not caring about anyone but themselves and their inner circle while they are counting their millions and laughing all the way to the bank, meanwhile their employees receive less and less in the process.
Is it OK to reach down and help them out of the bucket?
@kgw the company doesn't pay workers with profit(CPS check is from profits). Worker salaries are part of operating costs. Profit is what's left when all the bills are paid. The corporate greed model Verizon uses is " lower cost's (employee givebacks), increase profits". Corporate greed business practices are short sighted, selfish acts, performed by people who don't care about anything past their own nose. When the buying power of average stays stagnant or is forced downward, there will be nobody to buy the goods and services the one percenters are selling.
@fia - of course I would...the only difference is if I got a lump sum amount of 1 million (which is all i would need to be happy/content for the rest of my life) I would never work again and do all the other things i would want to do in my life while not being tied to a job. Unlike a CEO, I would ride off into the sunset instead of attempting to amass such a huge fortune that I couldn't spend in 10 lifetimes. UNLIKE the very wealthy, i wouldnt need to purchase my 10th mansion or my own private island to feel like i have accomplished something.
Yes, I totally agree with that. But I think we disagree on how that happens. Capitalism intends to have society lift each other up to the next level. Socialism intends to have society pull each other down to a lower level. It's not about punishing those who make more than you do. What you are advocating is like having a bucket of crawdads and expecting them to climb up and out. It's not possible because as one climbs up, the others pull him back down. And there they all stay.
Can you argue, when everyone does better so does the country.
@npm- you and I can both agree that corporate America is too concerned about profit, and not about the individual worker. But the salary of the executive shouldn't be an issue. It's been set and approved by the BOD, and is also in line with CEO compensation levels. The market set the standard. Just as the market sets the standard for your salary or mine. Again, going back to scenario of your salary versus a clerks salary. In their mind, the salary and benefits you make is completely out of control and excessive. So then should your salary be up for debate simply because someone thinks you make too much? The corporate greed message is just another way of saying that you're jealous you can't earn that much. In all honesty, if I had the chance to take a job making $1m per year, you bet I would jump on it. And I assume you would as well.
"What you're saying basically is that since you can't earn that much, then no one else should either."
Nope, no one is saying that. However, the gap between the rich and the poor is the largest it has ever been in American history. CEOs make more than 300 times the average worker in this day and age, and it was much less than that going back to the 50s when America was obviously more prosperous then it is now. I don't support downright socialism but i don't support crony capitalism which we have in this country. Capitalism with morals and not just profits would be a much better economic system.
@alu: I'm not sure what you mean by your post. Can you expand your comment? I think this is a great conversation to have, so I want to make sure I understand the point you're making.
kgw
.....and it's dictatorship mentality?
But you forget that the corporation pays thousands and thousands of employees across the world with the profit it makes. Additionally, the stock price, which determines the interest rate, borrowing costs, and the market cap is tied to profit. So really the issue isn't corporate greed so much as it is jealousy of the leaders salaries. What you're saying basically is that since you can't earn that much, then no one else should either. So in that case, should your salary be reduced to be more equitable with a secretary or clerk who makes 1/3 of what you make? In their eyes, you're overpaid. Do we all then just go to the lowest common denominator and have very one make the same salary regardless of position or tenure? You're advocating something that is totally socialist mentality.
@fwt. I would say corporate greed only helps the people at the top. Union greed at least helps the people who are doing the day to day. If greed is bad all around, then I would rather the avg Joe get a piece of the pie. Why hate the guy who does not have a golden parachute, who has a family and does not want their jobs shipped overseas like thousands of jobs have been in America. I'm not saying greed is acceptable but if it is what capitalism is built on then I want the little guy to have a shot too and not just the corporation.
"Why is corporate greed any more despicable than union greed? Union is an organization, or a business in a way. Why is their greed acceptable and the corporate greed isn't?"
Why do a group of CEOs and Executives who sit on ass hold PR meeting and delegate tasks and make decisions all day everyday deserve millions of dollars in pay when the workers beneath them that do all of the real work to make this company extremely wealthy get the shaft with reductions in benefits among other things? Sounds like welfare to the already rich to me!
Corporate greed is worse because it's over the top. Anyone below a third level is in the same situation. If you have kids, college is hard to afford, if you want to vacation, it's difficult. Corporate greed is focused on the top guys taking care of generations of their own family. The grandkids of these people will never have to work, doesn't seem right.
@fwt- that's the best question I've seen posed. I bet you don't get a real or intelligent answer though. The truth hurts, so they will just ignore it or reply with some union speaking point that they were brainwashed to use.
Frustrated, workers hate hate hate.
So i guess the enemy of my enemy is not my friend.
Why is corporate greed any more despicable than union greed? Union is an organization, or a business in a way. Why is their greed acceptable and the corporate greed isn't?
So corporate greed is ok?
We all hate Verizon, but we hate the union even more... The union is sh!t.
It's not so much love for the company, as it is hate for the union. I have no love nor loyalty to Verizon at all. But the union greed and welfare mentality are sickening.