Thread regarding Wells Fargo & Co. layoffs

I am a manager. Ranking is the way to scare people to leave, build the case to fire people for cause, significantly cut their bonus and have the justification for layoff. I don't see how this ranking will improve productivity.

@1qsb
Are you one always rambling about "tellers" in IT? If so, you should be thankful, they were very generous giving you a 2.

It will be interesting to see where those folks whose all managers were let go and are now under someone who has no idea how they performed this year are ranked. Could be a way to get rid of more folks.

I work in Tech. My advice, from the last time I worked for a dysfunctional company (and the only time I was ever PIP’d) is to consider a six month contract. The interview process is faster, there is less chance for your current manager to torpedo the hire because usually the reference checks are less thorough. And it’s often easier to get a contract in a down economy than a permanent hire. It gives you six months to figure out what you’re doing next. If you’re getting ranked as a 2 with no real explanation, if they can’t spell out what they need for improvement, if you are sure you weren’t getting unearned 4s in the past, I would probably get out by any means necessary. It sounds like an unhealthy situation.

@1ylh+185qPoJq: I am not OP, but I had a similar situation years ago in Technology group. Since we were required to have coverage 24x7, my PTO was denied all of the time because my teammates submitted their PTO requests before me (approvals were first come first serve). I literally had to take PTO on a random Tuesday or Wednesday during random weeks. I lost a few days of PTO because my requests wee not approved. Now I submit all of my PTO requests for the entire year on Jan. 2

Sorry but why would a manager stop people from putting PTO in - you have to take PTO. This sounds fake just based on that.

Be careful, this is a control tactic managers use here to control people, similar to what is used by communist countries. They first make employee feel they are great, then they or they have someone unknowing worker push them down for some period of time. Right before you are about to say "take this job and shove it, i aint working here no more", they build you back up.

They have a passive aggressive narcissistic style to be used for a control tactic. Only way to recover is to leave the situation. Very unhealthy to be around people like this so save your health, no price for it

My NON technical Manager in the Technologies department ranked me with a "2" rating during mid year reviews. That same Manager, supposed to be technical is NOT technical at all. Knows very little about programming and could never write a program on their own. Same with that Managers next higher Manager. Yet the so NOT technical Manager in the Technologies department ranks me as a 2 when I am the one who has produced so very many VERY technical reports over the past many years. That Manager does take the credit for the technical reports being produced, though had little to do with the completion of the report. NON technical Technologies Managers deserve a rank of -1, not qualified at all.

This last post is accurate. I have a situation where I have three people in my team . One is 10+ yrs in the bank , and the other two are about 3 yrs. unfortunately the 10 year girl is a bit weak , relatively speaking than the other two ladies . However I will have to fire if the the twins since the 10 year person has points coming in for years of service . So the old timer will survive and the random one get picked . This must be the story everywhere in the Bank!

@ppz+185qPoJq

Most certainly performance ranking enters into the decision to displace someone. If there are 3 people doing a certain type of job, and there are only two positions in the go-forward org structure, then the three are rank-ordered by performance (with a small factor thrown in for tenure) and lowest performer is displaced.

This is NOT the same thing as "does a displaced employee with a performance rating less than meets get severance" If you are involuntarily terminated for a reorg/reduction - you get severance.

If you are put on a "performance plan" (aka PIP, Formal warning, etc) and end up being terminated for "cause" - you do not get severance. this type of termination is not the same as a restructure-initiated displacement.

To you question about "why rank at all" - the answer is: because it allows managers to reward high performers differently than lower performers, lets employees know that they have to "up their game" in the new world order, and if you don't... then you may be put on formal action/performance plan (which 99% of the time ends up with the employee being terminated for cause - no severance).

The literature on this type of system is out there - it's not universally accepted that this improves overall company performance... however, this is the philosophy and system that our current management subscribes to, so it is what it is. I'm not defending or saying any of this is right or good - just it is what it is.

Eh, I know it’s hard to take in when you get a lower ranking than in the past. I’m a current manager at WF. In the past, I rated my team based on overall performance. There may have been areas to improve, but in the end, the team member performed. Ultimately, there were new expectations for how we rated team members this year. This is why we had the mid year reviews. As a manager, I had to look at every little detail of performance management. It was hard to look a team member in the eye and say they inconsistently met an objective because they didn’t perform in one or two areas that we may not have constantly talked about, but I had to. It made all of us realize that it’s up to us to read everything we are required to do and get it done. I think it depends on how your manager had the conversation with you. For my team, it was motivating because it brought up areas we often overlooked even though we knew it was there. As a result, we had a pretty good two month span in between mid year and end of year reviews. I would suggest not fretting over the rating as much as you are, but look at ALL of your expectations. If you overlooked an area (even when your outcomes seem good) bring your performance up and share your success with tour manager. These layoffs aren’t a result of your performance alone, but what your unit contributed to the bank; and if your unit is projected to be profitable in the future. Sharf is asking us to do it all not just focus on results, but how you got there. It s—s to hear, but I feel we were spoiled over the past few years. That’s just my take as a manager. I’m going to have to layoff an unknown amount of my team very soon as I have already been trained on the conversation. I know it’s not based on my individual reviews of them, but of metrics I had no say in determining. To prevent more of it down the road, my unit has to ensure we are profitable to the bank and do all that’s expected. It’s a lot of work, but I still have some confidence in what we are doing.

I did not say which way age was a determining factor, it depends on the population of people to be laid off. I said it was a data point, and it’s one that is not subjective. Legal status and real factors matter much more than rankings exactly as I stated.

I told you exactly why bother with rankings, to scare people. Some people will be scared into doing better. Some will be scared into leaving. Either way, it’s good for the bank. This board is evidence that it worked.

@ksf+185qPoJq

If ranking isn't a factor of severance, then why rank at all? Why rate people that don't deserve the low performance when management can't substantiate it? Why not offer voluntary packages instead??? It seems to me that there is more to this. If not, then why not just layoff whomever they decide? Isn't that subjective enough??? Additionally, you mentioned age and tenure is a factor. Isn't that a "Protected act" under Title VII, if over 40??? I'm not buying it. There's more to their model for determining unsubstantiated "low performers" or they would be offering voluntary packages, in my opinion.

Your warning sign should have been "he came from BofA as an executive"....

“Low performance” is not a disqualifier. People keep reading this wrong.

The relevant section means that severance is not an alternative to being demoted because you didn’t perform. You get demoted, and you either accept it or quit.

Severance is also not an alternative to a shift change or an involuntary transfer.

It means, the company is not going to offer you a package if you have to work 10-7 instead of 9-5.

There is nothing in the SPD about numerical rankings determining eligibility for severance. There is a legal reason for that, it’s subjective and unreliable. Age, tenure, skill set, cost to company and future of role and business unit are data points that are used.

These rankings are HR performance art, designed to scare people. Not one thing has been communicated about the actual real life effect of the number. Ask yourself why.

Anyone that knows they’re under “meets” should certainly be networking, updating their resume and actively looking for new options. I don’t have any first hand knowledge but would wager they’ll use performance as an indicator for layoffs.

I noticed what you mentioned too; managers trying to make people not confident any longer.

Thing is you have to try and steer clear of this behavior, as if you go and apply for other jobs the most important quality will be confidence. No one wants to hire someone who is wishy washy or doesnt believe in them self.

I fully understand what you are saying as they did same to me, but i took some days off/week to interview in Dec, and will have to eliminate the helpless non confident mindset.

Looks like you will be required to produce results instead of nestling at the shareholders breast

In my experience managers are being forced / "strongly encouraged" to assign ratings of 2 and even 1 if possible. Here's the fallacy: HR says it is not forced at a small group level but at a higher rollup, there should be a bell curve, more or less. So if I don't have any 2s or 1s, then one of my peers has to chip in double the amount for things to work out. Does anyone think that managers don't look at each team to see who is and isn't complying? Does anyone think I want to award double the % of 2s because my peer didn't do any?

Once you fall into that trap and award a 2, not you have to justify it. That requires fancy footwork because there was no reason to give a 2 besides the Pressure From Above, so now you're just spinning BS to bury the poor guy or gal.

A quick search on "is performance in companies bell-shaped curve?" yields numerous articles explaining why this idea does not work in the real world, like this one.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshbersin/2014/02/19/the-myth-of-the-bell-curve-look-for-the-hyper-performers/

Basically in teams you probably have a lot of 3s, a few 4s and maybe a couple 5s. Where are the 1s and 2s?

• you didn't hire them when you interviewed them
• you didn't convert them from contractor to FTE
• they realized early on 'this is not for me' and left
• you found them a better fit
• you fired them

Sure there may be a few that cling on like barnacles but my experience is that is a very small percentage of people. No one wants to struggle, s—, and fail for years. This bell curve idea was made famous by GE during a time when the economy was so good even stupid ideas seemed to work:
""Yes, I realize that some believe the bell-curve aspect of differentiation is 'cruel,'" Welch wrote. "That always strikes me as odd. We grade children in school, often as young as 9 or 10, and no one calls that cruel. But somehow adults can't take it? Explain that one to me.""
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/how-millennials-forced-ge-to-sc-ap-performance-reviews/432585/

Kids' performance in school does track to a bell curve because all kids have to go and take all subjects. You don't fire kids each year. You don't select them. So many differences that explain why it fits school but not work.

This new management team is purposely arms-length and cold as ice. I think there is a chance they might use a PIP or fire a small number of people with low ratings in order to save on severance.

However, I don’t see them doing it in mass numbers. They will pay a severance in most, if not all, cases. They would have another PR nightmare on their hands. I would file a class action lawsuit on that one just to further destroy their already scandal-ridden reputation. (Company commits fraud, execs walk away with the loot, stock price dives, BOD pays new CEO $36 million to dramatically cut costs, CEO/HR orders managers to start aggressively downgrading employees and using PIPs to fire loyal front line workers to save on severance.)

Having said that, I wouldn’t put too much else past them. I do think they are intentionally trying to freeze us out, hoping many of us we will walk away with nothing. I do think they will reduce severance packages and reduce benefits. I would keep my nose clean and try not to give them an easy reason to fire me for just cause. The days of employee engagement are long gone.

It does mention in the benefits that low performance is a "disqualifier" for salary continuation.

This same thing happened to me. I was rated a 2 at mid year after many years of 4 and 5 ratings. My manager was unable to provide any justification for the low rating. I escalated it and got nowhere. I was recently laid off and the good news is I did receive full severance. I think I was a target due to my age/tenure and location in a high cost area. I already found a new job at a competitor that pays a lot more and I will still qualify for the Wells severance. My advice is to look for a job externally.

There is always one thing in common about you level 1 and 2s. You complain. Time to do some introspection. The problem is not your management. It’s you. You control your performance. At minimum your bad at relationships. Forge one with your boss and stop weighing down your team and creating stress.

Are we sure someone rated a “2” will not get severance? Curious about that because I am in same boat. Thanks

I couldn't have written this scenario better myself. I am also encountering the same situation. Current manager has never managed. They are inept and insecure and pull all kinds of sneaky stunts, in order to stay afloat. My Manager's Manager has never managed before either and has no idea how to communicate, let alone manage.... but WAIT! They will be saved/promoted, and positioned perfectly in this game, from Senior Leadership; Hence, a classic example of S**T floating to the top. It's not easy to go against the current but enough is enough. As another poster mentioned, they are forcing people out (terminating for unwarranted poor performance, instead of paying severance). Be strong and smart. Document everything and expose these creeps for who they are, while looking for another job. Another poster, in a previous post mentioned these great ideas:

Ah, the Performance Improvement Plan. In upper management, we call this "managing people out"
it will usually start out of no where. you start getting some feedback about your performance. it will escalate. you will start having weekly meetings with your boss. your mid-year review will summarize your "poor" performance, the feedback will continue. you will get no feedback on how good you are doing. it usually culminates in a poor end year review followed by a PIP OR they will put you on the PIP before your year end review. At end of PIP you will get put on 30 day final warning. By this time, its over but has been the strategy from the start of the process.

Some collected advice I have received over from someone in legal/employee relations, someone who is in investigations, and from a couple of external employment attorneys. Read all this
Write everything down. Everything. Take detailed notes (dates, times, who was present, summary of conversation) of conversations and meetings with your manager or other meetings where your manager is present. Save emails and chats where you are having conversations and include those as attachments to your "notes" email (below). My advice, record your conversations, use the recordings to take your detailed notes, then save or delete the recording (consult your state wiretapping laws). It's a little work but it pays off.

To make your notes "official" send an email to yourself (work email) with these notes (include relevant attachments) for each meeting or interaction. Then, print this off, physically. Do not email it to your personal email account. If they are looking to get rid of you this is one way they can fire you for cause. If you cannot print physically, then take a photo of your screen that has the email notes opened up with your phone. Still send the email to yourself (work email) because it now becomes discoverable if there is any litigation.

Key is to show you are performing and that your manager is contradicting themselves, or providing you with poor management, poor direction, vague instructions, etc. You have to be able to paper these people to the point that they give you a severance to avoid legal issues.
Take notes on feedback you receive from your manager, the frequency of your interactions with them and if they ever provide you feedback or guidance. I know some people here who never speak to their managers for weeks. Note this as well. Use snippet to take a screen shot of your calendar meetings showing how often your boss is reaching out to meet with you for one on ones. include this in your notes email (from above).

Your notes will pay off. trust me. if you keep this up for a couple of months or longer there is no way in hell your manager is going to be able to recollect or refute things you have documented.
DO NOT contact HR. DO NOT contact Wells Legal. These groups are here to protect the firm and your manager. DO NOT EVER write a response to your manager and CC Legal or HR. If you contact HR or Legal trust me, they will contact your manager even though they say your conversations are confidential.
If you have been here a long time and/or are older, consult with an employment attorney to build a strategy and plan. Its worth the thousand or so bucks you will pay.

Same thing is happening to me. I work hard and smart. Manager told me I'd get a 4 at year end by dangling carrot "jump through this addtl hoop" after a surprising 3 at mid year. I jumped through the hoop and now manager is looking for any possible reason to give me a 2! Mind was made up – being pushed out due to age, location, and salary. My former mgr told me to watch my back... current manager will spin things to force a 2 if I don't trip up myself.

Unethical in every way. I hope these awful managers rot for what they are doing. How can they sleep at night?

So callous!

Post ID: @jsr+185qPoJq

I am not the OP, but I have a deep dislike for sanctimonious pricks. Truly talented people don’t feel the need to put others down. Hope you can find a more constructive way to build up your fragile ego in 2021.

You're not the only one. There is widespread 2-ing of competent, valuable, previously 4+ rating staff.

Ex Bank of America people are throwing new people under the bus to try to save their incompetent asses. Leave WF all together.

Probably look in mirror. Up your performance. Or your toxic. Let’s get real. That’s the reality kids.

What’s the story behind the PTO? That sounds super shady.

Are his initials JO? Just a guess of a former boss that was an ars.

I don’t know your personal situation but, in general, if I were had my college degree and was young fresh and talented, I would never come to work for Wells Fargo unless it was the only place hiring at the time. That is what I would say to anyone I care for. There are too many well-managed growing companies out there who haven’t destroyed their brand, aren’t scandal-plagued, and aren’t under an asset cap imposed by regulators.

The fact is that Wells Fargo is going to be a losing proposition for 25% of employees, through no fault of their own. Employees are not “below expectations”, Wells Fargo is.

Times are rough right now, so I think your only choice is to keep this job as long as possible while aggressively continuing to look for something else at a better company. And be happy with a lateral move. The smart choice for everyone is to save themself and not be reliant on Wells Fargo for anything.

Man, this place is a cesspool. Managers are pulling all kinds of fraud and tricks. Team members get to pay for it. I'm sorry this is happening to you. Nobody deserves that. You sound like a sharp guy. You'll find a nice gig and land on your feet. No doubt.

sounds like you are pursuing the right strategy - find your next role.

Regarding the "what happens" if you get "inconsistently meets"

Merit increase will be very low or nonexistent
Bonus (if you are in a bonus eligible position) will be significantly below funded target
If your group is reducing headcount, AND you perform a similar job to others, you will be at or towards the bottom of the ranking and thus likely to be displaced.

There is no shortage of incompetent managers at Wells Fargo.

Dude sounds like a f—ing jerk.