Thread regarding Cisco Systems Inc. layoffs

It should be subject of oversight by congressional committee, but that never happens, because the corporate donors don't want Pandora's box to be opened.

Aw, hell no. If you want to KILL something, give it congressional oversight. Congressional committees do nothing but waste tax payers money and generate reports biased by the party that leads it. How can you tell if a congressman is lying? Their lips are moving.

Listen, the H1B visa was only ever used to suppress the cost of IT labor - mostly in Silicon Valley but also around Boston (when Mass. had an IT industry). The "lack of talent" was never about the lack of talent, it was about the cost of talent. It's been very successful in lowering/capping the cost of IT labor in the US, and increasing it in China and chiefly in India (where IT people earn much more than doctors).

Now we are in a situation where an IT worker with a family cannot afford to live anywhere near San Jose without a multi-hour commute each way. Many of my colleagues who live/work in that area face punishing commutes, and are financially marginal at best - basically working poor. No wonder it doesn't attract many American workers - in spite of the opportunities there. Much better to be somewhere like RTP.

But the H1B has become a very handy way for a young person to step into the US via a few years of dorm-like living in the bay area under an indentured labor scheme (which it is). If you're prepared to room and share with a bunch of other H1B's, take your own food to work and generally live cheap for a few years, you'll eventually score a green card. Then options open up to "monetize" your position.

Additionally, the H1B visa has been used to drive the whole offshoring industry - bring in people to take the IP out of the US back to India. That's a fact and a matter of public record - just look at who applies for all those visas.

Basically, it's been rorted massively, and long overdue for reform (I don't like in the US - no skin off my nose, but I see what it is). It should be subject of oversight by congressional committee, but that never happens, because the corporate donors don't want Pandora's box to be opened.

US have admitted 12 million illegal immigrants and they are adding extra burden on resources and Tax payers are supporting these illegals.

Agreed. And they're the ones that need to be deported, especially the ones that break our laws.

Why you folks hate H1/L1's or Legal immigrants from India or China.

Because they're taking our jobs.

How many Indians and chinese have committed felony crimes and created law and order problems.

Who knows? Probably not many.

They are law abiding citizens who pay their taxes and play by rules. Such immigrants only help US to grow bigger and expand its reach. if you drive out all bright talents, US will lose out is Tech world.

I'll agree that they are law abiding people who pay their taxes and play by rules, but they are NOT citizens. I don't agree that they ONLY help US to drop bigger and expand its reach. Only 20K of the 85K H1B's have advanced degrees. That means that more than 75% of them are no more talented than US college graduates. I've had to teach supposedly experienced H1B's how to do simple tasks. They're the ones taking jobs away from Americans and they're the ones that we don't like. They may be nice people on a personal level, but they need to go home and work in their country so our citizens can get jobs they're qualified for. Let US companies outsource the work to their countries and let them work there instead of here. When US companies find the the outsourcing doesn't work as effectively as in-house workers, they'll bring back jobs.

US needs to get its immigration priorities right. you are admitting folks from countries in middle east who hate US and want to destroy US.

Not all the immigrants / refugees coming in hate the US. That's just racial profiling and stereotyping to say everyone from the middle east wants to destroy the US.

@4dyb - Trump isn't fixing healthcare. He will fix the symptom and will provide the ability for more Americans to "buy the health policy they want from who they want". However none of these people will be able to afford to go to the doctor because Trump will not have fixed the problem. That is the cost of the drugs, tests, procedures and doctor visits. Ya see the difference?

He's a sideshow caller and you got s---ered into paying to go in the tent.

The Russian spy, sometimes called potus, won't do anything with H1b. If he wanted (and doesn't want as that could harm some of his buddies), he won't have time as he will be impeached in few months.

But it'll be interesting to see what's Pence up to.

Here is a simple fact. Non-American Citizens are not entitled to any benefits that citizens enjoy. Why is there an expectation that the US should be wide open to anyone in the World that wants to enter legally or illegally? Until the US can ensure we are on a solid footing financially, militarily, healthcare, etc. we can't continue to support the entire world. These are simply the facts and don't think they can be disputed although debating them is of course expected these days. However, we have laws on the books that the Obama administration ignored based on their political views and the last 8 years has been nothing short of a disaster on the home front regarding immigration, enforcing laws, healthcare costs and especially race relations which Obama seemed to enjoy "stoking of the fire".

As for anyone that wants to come to the US legally, work hard, pay taxes, obey the law and seek to be a positive member of society, I say welcome. We just need to ensure that people breaking the law to get here are not rewarded and prevent the unfairness to those that wait in line for years and pay $$ in the process.

Now as this relates to Cisco, no doubt they have used and abused the H1B visa program and plan to do so going forward. Cisco continues to age discriminate American workers during LRs even though they'd fight any accusation diligently in court. We all know it is true but nobody has the resources to fight such a large corporation on this. It will take some legislative action and enforcement to force companies like Cisco to prioritize American workers over H1B resources. Many of those smart people in all the LRs since 2008 could have been retrained into the "skills needed in the future" but I see Cisco's decision as both lazy leadership and the desire to improve the financials over any commitment to the USA and its workers.

Todays refugee is tomorrows american :)

You too are the descendent of either a refugee or a economic migrant to the new world. None came here for a picnic if they had it so great in europe.

Meantime...

New York: An Indian-origin human resource manager has become the third person connected with two outsourcing companies to be convicted of H1-B visa fraud in a scheme that also ripped off tech employees, according to Paul Fishman, the federal prosecutor for New Jersey.

Hiral Patel, who worked for SCM Data and MMC System, admitted her guilt before federal judge Kevin McNulty in Newark, New Jersey, on Tuesday, prosecutors said. She was found guilty of obstructing justice in connection with the scheme.

Patel, 32, was arrested in May.

Sunila Dutt, a lawyer in Virginia, was convicted of involvement in the fraud in October.

In December, Hari Karne, the immigration manager for an Indian company was found guilty in the same scheme. Prosecutors said that he was from Hyderabad and worked for SCM Private Limited in India, which had agreements with SCM Data and MMC System to provide staff.

Sowrabh Sharma, the New York-based owner of the two companies was arrested in September and Shikha Mohta, 31, of Jersey City who was the head of finance for the two companies, in May and both have been charged with fraud in the scheme, according to prosecutors.

The two companies recruited student visa holders or recent graduates as consultants, obtained H1-B visas meant for professionals with specialised skills and placed them with other companies requiring information technology support, according to the prosecution.

Under the terms of the H1-B visas, the consultants had to be given full-time positions and paid an agreed salary. But they were paid only when they were working at the third party companies that contracted with them, the prosecution said.

To show the government they were being paid as full-time employees, they were asked to give SCM and MMC cash equal to the salaries for periods they were not at the third party companies and their employer, the two outsourcing companies, did not pay them, according to the prosecution.

The two companies then issued them checks for those amounts, which they were made to show to the immigration authorities as proof they were working full time and receiving the wages they were supposed to for the H1-B visas, the prosecution said.

Prosecutors said in December that there were six co-conspirators in the scheme, but did not identify them.

SCM Data is based in New Jersey and MMC System is headquartered in Virginia.

Americans can decide to stop work visas if this is their will. We don't need China or India tell us what to do or any other country for that matter!

way I see it there is no way to "get in" and then "bolt the door after you"

around 10,000 years ago the so-called 'native tribes' of america walked across the land bridge from siberia and populated the two continents . low pop, vast resources...they though they had it good and so they did, until the spanish and english appeared with guns , ships and germs plus insatiable greed for gold and land. natives took a bad hit and got wiped out mostly or kicked into the reservations. africans millions of the strongest got pulled in chains across the atlantic , mortality rates must have been terrible on the slaver ships and month long voyage...no "christian" compassion seen there, business is business.

the initial set of northern euros who got in looked down upon and tried to prevent the dark skinned greeks, sicilians and spanish from crawling in , but they did. japanese and chinese came and laws were enacted preventing asians from coming in. east europeans too.

then came chinese, vietnamese and indians and these earlier generations now worry their american born kids are having to fight tooth and nail with fresh waves. some of them crap on the mother country even more than racist whites to "fit in" and "be more american than american"

tomorrow it could be anyone - pakistan , nigeria, indonesia ...

its a process of dog eat dog , there is no guarantee of anything...the repubs have ensured there is not even guarantee of basic free healthcare in the richest nation in the world, forget subsidized higher education

thats america - the land of the strong! and may the devil take the hindmost.

I dare trump to shutdown all H1Bs and L1Bs. Cisco should hire more in bangalore. They should only hire urgent staff requirements and completely put hiring freeze.

There was possibly a time when H1Bs where needed in some industries, now it seems companies take advantage of this to manipulate wages at the expense of Americans.

The US will be OK without H1Bs, this was the case before H1Bs visas were created.

on another note I think Cisco problem is hiring low quality workers , be American or H1b.

I worry about the use of the word "quality" here. I've seen Cisco destroy legions of people who had tremendous potential on paper, and I've seen plenty of average people achieve greatness at other companies. The technical leadership has always been extremely poor which is why quality has been the biggest problem at the company for decades and those grown in that barren soil become every bit as toxic.

@LNL054m-1sly - a race to the bottom is not a strategy. And besides, you're a bit late - Chambers did that about 7-8 years ago, dressed up as "Globalization Center East" and "Globalization Center West".

Keep Niche development and latest innovation work in San Jose to please Trump but Cisco should urgently shut down all other US centers and move all work to Bangalore or other low cost destinations.

Otherwise Cisco will become Another Nortel. Cisco is really losing lot of market share and should act fast otherwise, we will be reading in google search 10 years from now , Cisco used to be biggest networking giant which got killed for acting so late on moving work to Bangalore.

1, Innovate and race ahead from rest, if you cannot do it,

1. move all work to Bangalore and close costly US centers before you can figure out your next move. you can earn some breathing space and Bangalore will spring a surprise with path breaking innovation. Indian govt will anyway give to tax breaks to keep you floating.

Have you guys ever being to a university recruitment event recently? I have. Out of around 100 masters students only 2 I can identify as white , 2 Chinese and everyone else is from India. No Hispanic or black students. Maybe 10 female students. Before we start blaming H1b's we should look like what is the future work force going to look like. What we should do is stop the misuse by the likes of Tata's.

on another note I think Cisco problem is hiring low quality workers , be American or H1b. In my new startup role I see lots of H1bs from India and Europe with lots of talent and dedication unlike at Cisco.

Not sure how this thread remains on this site when it seems more akin to an overall immigration debate than Cisco layoffs, but in trying to keep things on-topic, it's clear that Cisco has abused the H1B program and forced the layoffs of American workers for cheaper foreign labor. The purpose of the H1B program is clear by law -- American companies can hire foreign nationals to fill technical, hard-to-fill roles that CANNOT be met U.S. citizens first. US employees being supplanted by less expensive H1B holders is an abuse of the program, period. The illegal immigration debate is a red herring in the OP's post. Stay on point.

Another aspect is huge increases in cost of everything with no clear explanation. A long read but worth it

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/

When staff costs increase the top layer will look to retain their packages by hiring cheap at bottom layer and redistributing or culling the middle layer. This is what we see. We also see the declining quality of medical plans....

Why are outsourcing companies hiring so many H1-B? Why are these outsourcing companies not hiring Americans ? Few thousands are getting outsourced here in Bay Area every year. Even non-whites in the Bay Area agree that H1B system is abused by outsourcing companies along with local companies. Only the top can have big bonuses and big cars !!

@LNL054m-isx Do we have data to prove that how many US Citizens who qualify for Computer Science/Hardware/Software/IT Jobs are actually unemployed ? And how quickly they get a job once they are unemployed ?

I have not seen any statistics on that. Yes, h1b abuse is there, that needs to be stopped.

OP, check the doc below, especially tables 3, 4, 6:

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/02-25-16%20Hira%20Testimony.pdf

Agreed !! increasing wage requirements and punishing Visa abuses its a good way to address the problem. Shutting down H1/L1 completely or threatening the companies wont do any good for US Tech companies. We are competing in globalized world and need to attract talent from all over world. Smart Immigration plan that protect US jobs and still attract best and bright talent is needed. Trump should prioritize whether he wants middle east refugees or folks from failed states who cannot add any value or some illegal immigrant who feels its their right to enter US without valid Visa and eat into tax payers money and add more burden to already ailing infrastructure and system.

Nice anti Trump diatribe, but I don't think that really addresses the question. The problem people have with H1B is there are plenty of Americans to fill the jobs without bringing in lower wage H1B workers. Maybe the pending bill doubling the minimum H1B wage will fix the problem.

Agreed. Indians, Chinese, Iranians, etc. on the top end (e.g. Doctors, Engineers, Scientists). But don't forget the low-end. Next time you complain that fresh Strawberries in Silicon Valley Whole Foods markets have gone from $2 to $2.25/carton, think about the people you see from I5 and I405 running with bushels on their heads in 100 degree weather. They are from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc. Some legal, some not.

It's not just about you...remember that.

I don't think anyone with a brain in their head has issue with good immigration law or doesn't comprehend that we need ALL KINDS to come here to make this country work and continue to grow. The issue is with how 'The Fuhrer' went about it. It was Executive Order without any consideration that we have branches of govt. in place to protect against knee-jerk megalomaniac fueled silliness.

We'll eventually get back to logic. It is just going to take time for Trump to realize that this isn't a company it is a country and the government and it's people have a voice and can say no. And there's always the chance we will impeach him.......