Thread regarding University of Phoenix layoffs

Student population at proprietary are quite different in regards to age, economic state and adult life experience and responsibilities. It's not an apples to apples comparison and no one other than proprietary schools truly understand this type of student demographics. Now that everyone is beginning to understand the habits, it's time to make adjustments to produce better students, graduates and skilled workers so they can continue to fuel our economy. Also, keep in mind that your analogy of purchasing a ford focus vs a Mercedes also doesn't make sense. Even if you were to compare certain "legimate" schools as you put it, you would find that a school like Harvard and Ohio State do not compare. So there are so many variances in student demographics. If by being "legit" means having a student population consisting of almost nothing but kids from the elite population of business owners and mega millionaires then go ahead and continue supporting their "legitamancy." I'll support any education system because I believe in an education but the sad truth is that there are problems in every system and its a matter of fixing it.

Anonymous109122, yes, that's fine too. Mr. Kirk Hoskins' telephone number is 502-821-9001. I'm sure he'd like to know how far up the food chain these strategies were developed, who at University of Phoenix and Apollo Education group knew, and when they knew.

Anonymous109122, yes, that's fine too. Mr. Kirk Hoskins' telephone number is 502-821-9001. I'm sure he'd like to know how far up the food chain these strategies were developed, and who at University of Phoenix and Apollo Education group knew.

Also, if you have information about the case mentioned in the title of this thread, contact Mr. Haskins directly. Don't route your complaint through Camden. No offense Camden, but potential plaintiffs in this case would be much better served contacting the attorney directly instead of going through in anonymous internet poster.

@sure yes, the cost for education is going up across the board, both at legitimate and for-profit schools. Let me carefully explain the difference to you though: the numbers show that a graduate from a traditional school has a much better shot at recovering his or her investment than a graduate from a for-profit. That's a fact. Additionally, the revenue earned via tuition at a traditional school is reinvested into the school, whereas the revenue from tuition at a for-profit is used to pay exorbitant salaries to Tim Slottow, Greg Capelli, et al, and on marketing campaigns. Google the statistics on how much UOP spends on marketing vs. instruction. It's eye-opening and it's not okay. Arguing that the cost of tuition at a legitimate school being similar to UOP as a way to rationalize UOP's practices is a very stupid argument. It's like a car dealership selling a Ford Focus for $60k and saying "what's wrong with that? The Mercedes dealership charges the same price."

Might not necessarily use "sales" pitching at state but that's because states schools already have a influx of students coming and applying right out of high school. There's also no such thing as a "working-adult." Most students at state also hold low end jobs part-time while in school and many probably even after graduation. Plus it's common to see costs of over $11k (or more) per academic year at many state schools. This is not including room and board, food and other living expenses which could more than double that. If students use their max loans or grants for that academic year they will be looking at having to tap into either they're pockets or private loans. Easily a student can spend around $40k in just two years of public state costs. Don't tell me it's not a problem everywhere because clearly the numbers show it!

@Camden, some learning centers held Hiring our Heroes job fairs AT THE LEANING CENTERS. The purpose of these events were less about helping veterans find jobs and more about generating new military leads.

Mr. Kirk Haskins is the lawyer for Marlena Aldrich and Kristen Nolan in the class action complaint. You can email me (anonymously) to exchange information. Does anyone know how far this manipulation of veterans goes up the chain of command...and the fear of being fired for not making the numbers? From what I gather, the same manipulation techniques (e.g. digging 6 layers deep, poking the pain, strategic partners) were taught in workshops and were used in several states, which would indicate a much larger problem. It also appears that University of Phoenix is going to "Hiring or Heroes" events in several states, which appears to be a good spot for targeting vulnerable soldiers and vets.

@Sorry, you're wrong. No traditional school trains their advisors in sales psychology. As far as the tax revenue, any corporate income tax paid by the university is negated by the millions of dollars they cost the government via defaulted loans you f***ing dolt.

I've worked for traditional schools and It's not much different. Still have to look at total registrations and those retained. The schools will not get more tax funding unless there is proof of demand. Plus schools like UOP pay taxes (millions), meaning that some of those funds get funneled back into the Arizona communities.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the post below is a perfect example of for profit college "spin". Take the argument and try to make it sound good in your favor.

Dear respondant below, why did you not answer my limousine question? How many student loans pay for limo service each year?

Private college loans are almost guaranteed with a cosigner, and because they are non dischargeable in bankruptcy, are super easy to get.

Corinthian and other for profits started lending their own money as student loans. Its why Corinthian closed. Read about it.

"Scholarships" at for profits are mere discounts, nobody donated the money. and are only received after the student has completed several courses, of course paid for with loans. Its more spin, trying to make a discount sound good. Bleh.

You think someone who cant afford it and sold/talked into spending even 60k on a worthless degree is ok? Do you think someone making 8$ an hour should buy a new Mercedes?

Private loans??! You probably forgot that private student loans are based on a persons creditworthiness unlike sub/unsibsidized loans. Not to mention they are all managed by the Feds or Direct Loans (same ishh). When someone requests to borrow a private loan, creditworthiness, debt to income and other factors play a role in the qualification. You really think that a person who has already borrowed $57k in sub and unsub would be qualified for a private loan?? HELLLL NO! BTW - most bachelors programs at UOP from zero credits are around $60k. Not to mention the many methods to lower that with new student scholarships of up to $10k, corporate partnership discounts, potential tuition reimbursement. Plus other ways to save like using professional experiences as subject credit and or completing proficiency exams in gen ed subjects to essentially waive out of certain courses. All leads to lesser cost, better financial management and overall less debt.

First of all, dummy, there is a 57$ k cap on FEDERAL aid. Ever hear of Institutional and private loans? High interest, no cap and not transferrable in bankruptcy...yet not eligible for IBR. Yea, you onveniently forgot to mention those! Tuition at the for profit I work at is about 80k for a bachelor's. The stretch limos parked out front tell me, they could be going for those private loans to complete their degrees!!

RIGHT ON!

Just want to add - c'mon, be realistic. If you're going to lie at least make it believable. First of all, there's a $57k cap to student loans. It's not until you earn a first bachelors degree that they will increase aggregate limits to $138k or so. There's no way an educated retired person would be stupid enough to be "swindled" into borrowing an additional $50k when first of all most graduate programs do not cost more than $35k at UOP. BTW - it's much cheaper than the $50 - $60k at WP Carey's MBA Online at ASU.....but there not for-profit they say.

So you think it's A OK that these people were misled into taking out these loans, and say it's their fault? Wow, you're a terrible person. How dare you stand up for a large company that systematically screws people over? I've seen the salespeople work. I've SEEN how they talk poor, desperate people into taking out 100k in loans for a worthless piece of birdcage liner. How dare you blame the victims. I guess if your grandmother got taken by some swindler for her retirement money because she didn't know any better, you'd blame her too.

Anonymous108816 -- I'm not concerned about my grammar and/or sentence structure capabilities. I'm concerned about your lack of attention you provide to the subject matter and abilities to rationalize, be open minded about creating solutions to these problems. I'm not denying that there are issues. I'm not condoning to wrong doing, I'm just simply attempting to help everyone else here look at things from different perspectives.

That's all! No need to get all sassy pants about it. I appreciate your contribution though.

@OMG Attempting to rationalize the bad behavior of UOP by saying "well, every other school has it's own share of problems too" or by shifting the blame to the students are both examples of logical fallacies that one would learn an any Intro to Logic or Intro to Psych class at a legitimate university. Since I'm assuming your educational experience consist solely of UOP "coursework" I don't blame you for arguing the way you do, but you should know that your arguments are invalid. I asked earlier if you were employed by UOP because I think (based off your misspellings and use of certain words out of context) I know who you are, but then again you fit the profile of just about anybody at the EM or DOE level, so maybe I don't know you afterall.

Just want to add - we're just going around in circles with these conversations. Blame, blame, blame is what I hear. My understanding is there are plenty of conversations, workshops, tutorials surrounding responsible borrowing when it comes to student loans. People need to be held accountable for not listening to these conversations or maybe listening and doing what they want anyway. It's expenssive to attend a four-year university (not community colleges) regardless of where you go. However, price of tuition is one thing....how you go about paying for it is another. Be accountable for your own actions. Don't attend college if you don't intend on putting forth the effort and making adult academic choices and financial choices. If you don't know how to read or write solid sentences, have descent grammar and know how to navigate through basic computer applications including the internet.....seek low cost or free remedial tutorials. If you dig for problems you will find them EVERYWHERE (personally, economically, politically, globally).

@OMG, do you work for UOP?

The fact that enrollment at all costs IS the problem with these "universities". They put more money into enrollment and marketing than into the actual education these people are paying a Premium price for. All did not care if the student was not ready to take classes. That did not matter. They want the free money that comes with enrolling anyone because of title 4 loopholes. Makes me sick, and they all knew what went on and were not held accountable at all. They just lie and skirt any block that comes up and continue enrolling and collecting title 4 money.

BTW -- thank you for this explanation. I think that we can all agree that wrongdoing in any way to protect a companies assets as opposed to also considering the consequences to their consumer is wrong. Now launching a third party audit that consisted of internal employees seems like a conflict of interest. Leads me to ask, why a governing body like HLC or those at D.C. would accept results from an investigation that was all from those would have a bias opinion? Doesn't make sense. Just because the employee who submitted an "anonymous" claim lost his job in the next company reduction (layoffs) doesn't necessarily mean it was because of retaliation. Many people loose their jobs due to poorer financial results, market shifts, reinventing and restructuring the organization to meet the needs of an ever changing local and global economy. This is all part of the natural business cycle. People come, people go and it's all part of a healthy organization. Change is imminent and it must be done to remain sustainable. This goes for all organizations out there who want longevity because I really know little about UOP itself and more about business in general.

Awesome OMG, Cooking the books is wrong. Per Apollo employee handbook procedures, an employee reported what he witnessed to Apollo compliance. Apollo Compliance launched a third party investigation into the claim (the third party consisted of UOP managers). The third party found no wrongdoing, but made suggestions to streamline the process. UOP VPs, P.R., and external affairs bragged about their pro active approach to compliance in D.C., to HLC, and many more. The employee who submitted the anonymous report to Apollo Compliance, his reward for immediate action was that he lost his job in the next reduction in force.

When UOP launches an internal or third party audit it is for the sole purpose of staying one step ahead. UOP does not investigate and make changes to comply with laws, they investigate and make changes to pass audits. To deceive.

UOP employees are not okay with wrongdoing. They have witnessed the ramifications, and are intimidated by this company that manages to pull the wool over the eyes of every governing body responsible for protecting them. They are told to "Do what I say and don't ask questions." Like a UOP student, an employee is expendable especially when profitability is at risk.

Thank you. I'm just hoping that we can find more people out there who are willing to share thoughts and ideas. People benefit from an education, whether paid for, not paid for, taught by professionals or self-taught. Theres nothing wrong with expressing concerns, but do it in a way where it's effective and productive where it can lead to positive change.

I've enjoyed reading a thread that has an educated perspective. Thank you.

BTW -- Well that's certainly fantastic. Whether true or not it's obvious that you carry yourself as someone who is okay with wrongdoing. It's your responsibility to take action immediate, gather enough supporting evidence to present your case and do something about it. How many companies, institutions, universities don't we see from both traditional and non traditional under fire for allegations of wrongdoing? Many times, those actions are due to the poor leaders within. Don't shame the people who take part of its services or those who are doing the right thing and create a blanket of judgements based on your observations. Again, create positive change and be solution oriented.

Is UOP still cooking the books? It was always amazing to me how much we got away with during our "self policing" and "internal investigations." Especially where we manipulated/exaggerated numbers to comply with 90/10 and various regs. Manipulating Galaxy parameters made it much easier for us to pull the numbers we needed to show. Since we owned Galaxy, no one else really knew how the internal lead tracking system worked.

Suggestor and OMG,

This is about a group of people who were forced to choose between deceiving veterans or losing their jobs.

Comparing the actions of UOP to the housing industry makes me want to vomit. Then posting feel good responses like "good discussion"? You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Take your UOP public opinion spin and shove it. Get ready to take your spot next to big tobacco companies. We're not keeping your secrets anymore.

Suggestor - great post! I too agree that maybe greed got in the way to some extent. I do believe that there has been good intention in regards to wanting to do the right thing for the student but unfortunately not as much time was perhaps spent on the pre-orientation portion of starting a student. I'm talking in regards to coaching to financial responsibilities. Take a look at the housing industry a few years ago. Lending became extremely accessible to even those who shouldn't be affording the type of properties banks were allowing borrowers to get into. This led to the housing boom, over priced homes, exaggerated mortgage payments and the inevitable collapse. However, the market has now readjusted, things are starting to "right size" and hopefully regulators along with lenders can do a better job in educating borrowers on healthy spending. I think we are seeing this in the education market, the collapse has happened and now its the attempt to "right size" educators. I believe there's a market for both traditional and non-traditional as long as there is a demand. It's time to take better responsibility even if its perhaps at the cost of downsizing, reinvesting in better quality and support to those who need an education. Education shouldn't be something that becomes less accessible but instead it should be something that continues to expand and once again re-engineered using modern technologies.

Mind Maps? Where are the leaders with this terminology? They could be a good tool and called discovery maps. Look at successful companies like Costco and the CEO of Sales Force. Their emphasis in not on owner return or stock holder return. Both emphasize taking care of their customers and employees first. The returns will be there. Different opinions on this blog basically lead to a better UOP. Just how to get there. Unfortunately, there are not credible forums internally to make suggestions. This has lead to a frustrating situation with well meaning people. This can be a great university and take advance of early innovation reputation. Greed got in the way. Hopefully there will be an awaking and build a great tradition.

Regardless on many perspectives on this subject, it is good to see the first healthy discussion with thoughtful people on this site.

But then again there are plenty of financial solutions fo those who chose to attend schools like UOP even in their early adult years without having to attend a community college. In fact, ways to attend and avoid using any or very little student loans. What's better than to be able to start your career in an entry level job at 18 while working on building skills through a degree program at the same time? There are not many schools out there that can beat the type of support schools like UOP provide from start to finish. If a person is not willing to stick through it or make wise decisions about how they manage their finances even after having multiple conversations around cost and payment options then not sure if there is much more a school can be held responsible for. Secret shop, do your own research. I highly doubt you will find someone who is intentionally deceitful just to get you to enroll.

Anonymous108215 -- I don't believe you have accurate information and I'm sure you're not comparing apples to apples. Whether for profit or not I think we can agree that with your explanation all of education has plenty of room for improvement. Not to mention that data probably doesn't account for all the students who drop, enroll somewhere else, the drop again and go again somewhere else and then eventually graduate or not. Who's to say that many of those students attending proprietary schools don't just start to both qualify for financial aid and earn some gen ed credits to then go elsewhere? Yes information usually doesn't lie when you're able to gather solid data. Data is inconsistent and there are too many variables that can skew results. However, your suggestions for improvement are acceptable. I do feel that many under 24 year olds, with less than maybe 40 credits should remain at two year community colleges unless it's just completely impossible.

OMG, a 13% grad rate and 26% default rate at UOP compared to a national average grad rate of 56% and default rate of 13% speaks for itself. UOP is doing it wrong. Maybe the solution is to go back to only enrolling working adults over the age of 24, or lowering tuition, or strengthening admissions requirements, or developing more rigorous curriculum, but all of those things would cut into corporate profits. And therein lies the problem...

Changing lives for the worse. Debt you can't repay/worthless degree.

Anonymous108193 -- ok so I can accept your statement and say that perhaps the student demographic at proprietary schools are of those who are more vulnerable and perhaps higher uncertainties. However, the intention I'm sure has not been to "prey" on them. Conversation guidelines include discussing a financial game plan and intentions are always on first determining options that are outside of students loans (grants, scholarships, employer reimbursement, etc). However, many students' intentions on the other hand is to get as much money in their hands as possible. Regardless of the known consequences they still choose to make poor financial decisions. Who's to aggressively hold them back from making those decisions when regulators themselves make it so easy to gain access to our tax money? Common questions are "how much money can I get?" "When and where does my check come in?" Not all potential students have this mentality as there are many solid students with the right intentions. They also understand their financial commitment but it's obvious they make better choices along the way. Cant punish the few or discredit those who have the right intentions. Proprietary schools have solid academic structure with room for improvement just as any other college. Traditional universities have only begun to tap into online market so we're yet to see the challenges students, universities and tax payers will face as we move forward into the future of online education.

@OMG the solution certainly isn't to prey on and manipulate the most vulnerable, use their fears and insecurities against them, and fill them with false hope. The statistics don't lie OMG. The majority of students who enroll at UOP will end up worse off than if they hadn't attended college at all. If you're attempting to justify the boiler room practices that UOP uses to suck from the federal teat by saying it provides an opportunity for those who otherwise wouldn't have one, the statistics and countless former students and UOP employees would beg to differ.

Anonymous108163 -- maybe you care to share with the rest of us the support strategies other universities use? Not all student demographics are the same and the school along with other proprietary non traditional schools were designed to provide access to the non-traditional students. Online classes are not all created equal so you can't come back and say that other more traditional schools offer online courses that fit that market need. Many still have a long ways to go to educate and cater to that type of student. What's your solution?

It is unacceptable to use the same type of sales psychology when "selling" a degree that one would use when selling a Kirby vacuum. I can assure you that enrollment reps at traditional schools do not use mind maps or SSP or MAPPS or any of the other sales strategies UOP has trained their employees on over the last decade. Add in the fact that the majority of students will end up worse off after enrolling in UOP and it's hard to imagine that anyone with a speck of ethics and integrity can feel good about working in enrollment at UOP. The sad part is that most EMs think the way OMG thinks...mostly because UOP promotes people with no professional experience outside of UOP and no exposure to higher education other than UOP. When your leadership team is made up of shallow - minded company cheerleaders it isn't difficult to understand why the company is in the shape it's in.

Mind maps? This sounds like psyops. Where did University of Phoenix come up with that term?