Thread regarding Cisco Systems Inc. layoffs

Cisco is busily outsourcing support to Mexico and Latin America.

Those TAC jobs in the US are not coming back, folks.

"When it comes to layoffs, Thanksgiving or December doesn’t give Cisco HR pause"

In fact, the most recent big layoff prior to this one was planned in October-November and notifications happened in week 2 December. That was a two-fer - managers were expected to finalize the plan over Thanksgiving and employees who got whacked spent the December holidays fully aware that they needed to find new jobs early in the new year.

Cisco HR is called "People and Communities" now. Mostly because they are trying to branch out and not do the actual HR part of their job that they're paid for.

Employees at tech companies in the 1980s didn't have to spend a lifetime at a company for a pension. Your pension was based on time spent at the company and was easily transferable.

Neutron Jack at GE started the fad of laying people off before people turned 65 to keep from paying a full pension. Also, many of the tech companies of that era aren't even a distant memory to anyone but a few of us with one foot in the grave. If you're lucky enough to be a much younger spouse to a pensioner and you live far more years you can end up collecting pension for 30 years which creates quite a burden on those funds. These days pension funds are underfunded and poorly managed and without the PBGC and the Pension Protection Act many pension funds would drastically reduce their payouts over the next few years. It was a concept that was never going to be self sustaining.

"Welcome to supply and demand. By creating a loan program where you could borrow whatever you wanted and unlike most other loans could not absolve it through bankruptcy, you have an endless supply of loan money creating a false demand for "education." "

I've also read the increase in college tuition is a clever strategy to force poor people into joining the military for scholarship money.

"They were built on the concept of infinite growth. Eventually it became apparent that's not possible. It was also built on the idea of lifelong employment at one company or government entity, something that is between undesirable and impossible for many today."

Employees at tech companies in the 1980s didn't have to spend a lifetime at a company for a pension. Your pension was based on time spent at the company and was easily transferable.

What happened to pensions?

They were built on the concept of infinite growth. Eventually it became apparent that's not possible. It was also built on the idea of lifelong employment at one company or government entity, something that is between undesirable and impossible for many today.

How much was the cost of college tuition in the 1960s?

Welcome to supply and demand. By creating a loan program where you could borrow whatever you wanted and unlike most other loans could not absolve it through bankruptcy, you have an endless supply of loan money creating a false demand for "education." There is a fair bit of research showing a significant percentage of kids don't know more useful stuff and haven't refined their reasoning capabilities after completing college "successfully."

Starting in first grade in elementary school we had to pay attention throughout 50 minute classes. Try giving a 10 minute presentation at Cisco. People are twitching and spazzing, playing with their portables and otherwise doing anything to avoid actually paying attention to the presentation, and it's not just the new kids.

Or the cost of housing?

Again, supply and demand. In 1950 we only had just over 150M people in the US, and now we're close to 350M, and they all want to live near cities with the finest food, entertainment, education, high paying jobs, etc... but the amount of real estate in within a fixed distance of a city has remained constant. Indeed, the needs for ever expanding infrastructure has consumed land that was previously used for housing.

The 1960s was before the outsourcing of American manufacturing jobs, the creation of the H1b visa, and the "gig economy".

Yes, back when every electronic device was made from mostly standardized parts and came with a schematic. Even with that we had a live in GE repairman working on our black and green TV until the warranty was up, and it never did display either blue or red. In the early 1980s we imposed restrictions on Japanese auto imports and rather than improving competitiveness the US companies simply raised the prices on the garbage no one wanted and people still bought the Japanese products. Heck, even our best fish is exported while we import fish grown in toxic waste. On average Americans don't care about producing or consuming quality.

Also don't forget the cost of healthcare has skyrocketed.

Yes, we have by far the most expensive health care system in the world and one of the least effective for a wealthy country. Half the people believe that we should get rid of insurance altogether and just have the people in New York city trade the chickens they've been growing in their studio apartments to pay for health care. They also reject the idea that the government should use its negotiating power to reign in pricing. I'm waiting 9-14 months for simple appointments so the one complaint about foreign systems doesn't stand. Even when I see someone it's often no longer a doctor.

Household income didn't keep up with inflation after the 1990s.

You're late by two decades. Ironically the monkeys who voted to transfer all the wealth they create to people like me bought into the idea that if they get rid of the minimum wage and get $1/hr the investments they could then afford would bring them the Life of Riley. They worship people like me and call us "Job Creators" as their jobs are moved offshore. People are profoundly stupid, and the few of us with real investments who understand they aren't sustainable if you throw everyone out in the street are opposed most vigorously by those will be first out on the street.

Speaking of stupid, how many people who were saying here everyone would quit Cisco because Cisco had its first layoffs earlier this year actually quit?

The bigger story is how the company is involved in massive systemic age discrimination. There is currently a government investigation. I know because I'm involved in it.

@4koi+1nznSW1d 1.2m sounds very cheap. Is the Bay Area really that inexpensive?

Thank the boomers! They took from everyone what they had and what will ever be

"I was around in the 1960s when housewives washed down v-lium with booze which is how it became the most prescribed dr-g in the US."

What happened to pensions? How much was the cost of college tuition in the 1960s? Or the cost of housing? The 1960s was before the outsourcing of American manufacturing jobs, the creation of the H1b visa, and the "gig economy". Also don't forget the cost of healthcare has skyrocketed.

Household income didn't keep up with inflation after the 1990s.

"At a company like Cisco where you can start with an upper middle class income if you manage your finances well it can end well."

Do you live in San Jose? A single family home is over $1.2 million for a "fixer upper" in a bad school district. How do you raise a family on a Cisco salary in the Bay Area if you don't already own a home?

Also many people at Cisco are trapped on legacy products. Your management chain doesn't want you to expand your skillset or education... ask too many questions or want to learn new technologies and you'll end up sidelined.

Unless you reach a certain net worth, the corporate world doesn't end well.

At a company like Cisco where you can start with an upper middle class income if you manage your finances well it can end well. The problem is far too many don't work for companies that grow and broaden their skill sets, they don't put in their own time to grow, they don't jump jobs regularly and they don't learn how to manage their money. Comfort breeds complacency. Sadly no school teaches this and if you aren't super lucky and end up in a company that can leverage every talent you have and add more right out of school you may never fully know what you're missing.

The American corporate system is contributing to the increase in divorce, depression, and anxiety. And yet people are curious why there is such a horrible dr-g problem?

I was around in the 1960s when housewives washed down v-lium with booze which is how it became the most prescribed dr-g in the US. The Flintstone's had been advertising cigarettes and booze consumption started increasing significantly. All this was with a majority of stereotypical one earner families only putting in 40 hour weeks. From the time when the GI bill helped people to get an education to the draft causing more to get an educational deferment those who didn't inherently value education still got one. Now we have politicians talking about eliminating the twelfth grade, forcing people to pray in public directly against the teachings of Jesus and fighting to continue to have 12 year olds get married. Unless something changes we're destined to be Afghanistan 2.0.

"you can go back years on this site to see experiences from "it blew up my family and ended my career path" to "it was the best thing that ever happened to me by forcing me to rise to the occasion and ultimately find a much better job.""

Unless you reach a certain net worth, the corporate world doesn't end well. It's usually a 50 year old expecting to work a few more years that can't land another job. Draining their retirement savings on health insurance, and using all energy on landing a job interview.

The American corporate system is contributing to the increase in divorce, depression, and anxiety. And yet people are curious why there is such a horrible dr-g problem?

It was an awful experience and I'm so sorry Cisco Systems might be facing layoffs as well.

Every experience is different. If you're willing to put in the time you can go back years on this site to see experiences from "it blew up my family and ended my career path" to "it was the best thing that ever happened to me by forcing me to rise to the occasion and ultimately find a much better job." Neutron Jack at GE (one of John Chambers' idols) lead the movement of large scale layoffs around 40 years ago and there is plenty of existing research to draw from over that time period.

How do I know you're not a mole being paid by Cisco to sniff out disgruntled employees who will then be added to the LR list?

"Most people work 6 hours or less with few roles like PM, HTOM, TAC Manager, etc who get to take naps during the day"

Add CCS roles here

In the Uk, you are laid off last, often during a hiring freeze, with a fraction of the severance the yanks enjoy. No voluntary or part time either.

Stock buy backs, lies about how big rewards are going to be, leadership who hire their friends, minorities filling positions they are woefully unqualified for, women getting special treatment over men time and time again.

Glad I’m gone.

Yowei - I expect you'll get a lot of mixed reviews as many employees seemingly loathe the company while some of us still love it. I think it largely depends on what org they work in as the culture tends to differ in each, i.e., Engineering vs. Sales vs. Customer Experience (and I've worked in all three).

I originally joined Cisco in 1995 when the company was growing exponentially, our stock hit $200+/share and was splitting every six months, and every single employee down to the Mail Room Clerk got stock options. The late nineties were a very exciting time and morale was high.

I was there during the first Layoff in April 2001 which was pre-announced that January. It caused a lot of tension among us all having to wait so long to find out who would be impacted. When the day finally arrived, Cisco Corporate HQ in SJ had security personnel on site to deflect any potential upsets. I'll always remember when my then boss notified one of his Directors that he was impacted; the man had collapsed and my boss yelled out to me to "call 911!"

Over the years, the layoffs became more regular and now typically happen in Q1 and I've survived many. Then in September 2019 I was impacted. The formula followed is this: you get a 1:1 phone call scheduled on your calendar the night before (after hours) w/ your manager for the next day. Your manager reads from a script prepared by HR. The conversation is short and w/o emotion from the manager followed by an email with a multitude of documents to review and sign. You are given X number of days (it has varied from 30-90) to find another job internally with the promise that you'll be given priority over other candidates. I, like many, found this to be untrue. We were already marked with an 'X' on our foreheads. You feel shunned and all of a sudden no one wants to acknowledge you. Personally, I was surprised and devastated to be laid off (while others seem relieved).

As a tenured employee, my severance package was very generous (six-figures). Did I feel age discrimination played a role? Absolutely. But you have to sign a multi-page legal document stating you won't sue the company for age discrimination in order to get your full pay-out.

My package included the contingency that if I returned to the company in less than 6 months, I would have to payback a percentage of my payout. Not all packages include this clause. I was able to return 3 months later and happily paid a portion of my severance back to the company.

Despite my experience, I still love Cisco and the people I work with (in Sales). I've been around long enough to remember the good ol' days and I'm still happy to be a Cisconian. You'll find many people here don't feel that way.

Current Narcissistic CEO only cares about paying to hang out with celebrities and buying back Cisco shares and re-issuing them back to himself to fill his pocket with $700M+ of compensation during the last decade, while sales decline and competitors have done terrific

@1inm+1nznSW1d

I had a good amount of years (+15) in. I can't remember the same level of details you have, but overall, it was like ~10 months pay when all was said and done (RSUs, PTO, "extra" amount as you mention for "extra" years).

That was a weird year as when LR'd, had something teed up immediately. I was lucky and several ex-Cisco folks who were LR'd in cycles before me at new company. So had several good, empowered-to-hire, contacts at another company. I got LR'd at like 10am and by the next day had verbal offer.

I realize how rare that was, to have such a long good run at Cisco, and then something immediately lined up because of unique circumstances.

Doubt completely it would happen today.

Now in late 50s, completely 100% agree everyone younger has MUCH more of a tougher time getting raises and establishing a long term career.

I think the idea of a long term career has vanished, it almost now seems questionable for younger generations to stay at one employer more than three or four years.

I don't blame younger people for moving around.

The days of staying in one place and getting great raises and promotions ever year is OVER.

Back in 1990s tech, was able to triple salary at same company over nine years. Loyalty and results were rewarded. Now...FORGET IT.

Reason why Cisco has failed over past decade-Cisco narcissistic CEO created environments and dynamics where ELT members fail to co-operate with each other, hold grudges, fail to respect each other’s competence, and do not display integrity with one another which filters down to every employee

I've seen some genuinely horrible things at Cisco. The outsourcing of American jobs to countries without labor laws, and the exploitation of contract workers without benefits. Discriminating against employees by their caste is also well known at Cisco.

To be honest, I'd said the root cause for the demise of Cisco is that evil people can hide within large institutions. Most of the executives at Cisco lack empathy and have superficial charm. They use social issues and buzzwords to distract from the morally corrupt & rotten culture.

Yowei,

Cisco is the best place to work, in fact we won this award twice in a row, yay! Chuck and Francine are so friendly and always care about minorities and old employees. Most people work 6 hours or less with few roles like PM, HTOM, TAC Manager, etc who get to take naps during the day. If you work from office, lunch is always provided and free Gym membership. Due to a competitive salary and benefits, Cisco employees are smart and always pushing and helping each other. In worst case scenario if you're laid off, you get atleast 6 months of severance pay.

Last but not least, if you decide to relocate you'll be given a relocation package along with a week off so you can settle at your new place.

I've also sent you an email, feel free to call me.

Cheers

Yowei,

You're going to get a bunch of people who are all saying Cisco is terrible, but the fact is, I've worked at many tech companies over the years and I've worked for some that went out of business and others that were bought out, as well as working for Cisco.

The companies who went under, and started culling employees to try to stave off shutting down didn't give sh-t for severance packages. I've had everything from simply 2-wks pay in lieu of notice and 2-wks pay if I agreed not to sue, to 2-wks pay in lieu of notice and 2-wks pay plus 1 wk for every yr of service if I agreed not to sue at the low ends, to 30-days pay in lieu of notice and 60-days severance if I agreed not to sue as part of company buy-out reductions. Some even offered an additional 2-mo pay if you signed a non-compete agreement not to work for their customers or competitors, but I would never agree to those. Then there's the Cisco packages that average about 5-6 mo, which is the most I've ever received from a tech company although I've read news stories about FAANG packages that were better.

Another thing you'll hear about, with plenty of people on both sides, is about whether or not Cisco should announce the LR before hand "and leave everyone in limbo with an axe over their heads" for weeks or if they should say "surprise! you're gone effective now." with no notice that it's coming. I've been part of LRs from companies who've done the surprise method, and I've been part of the Cisco announcement in 2011 where we had 3 mo to wait to see if it was impacting us or not. I don't know which method I like best, but I will say that the early announcement does give you time to postpone major purchases because I've bought a new car that I could afford while employed, but had a hard time making the payments on once I was let go with no notice and still having 3 yrs left on the car loan.

@1sax+1nznSW1d, how did you get 10 mo severance back in 2017? Are you including your unused PTO payout?

I was part of the 2016 LR and I only got 5 mo of severance in the US.

• Notified the day after the earnings call that I was impacted
• I was considered an employee until Sep 19th like all the other US impacted employees
• I was given an additional 30 days/1 mo pay in lieu of notice thanks to that nice 60-day WARN requirement in CA.
• IF I signed the agreement not to hold Cisco liable, I received 3 mo pay as severance

So, between the 2-mo pay for notice (30 days as an employee doing nothing and 30 days "in-lieu pay" and the 3-mo severance pay, that was only 5 months.

Then there was the 4 mo of COBRA payments, and the payout for any accrued-but-unused PTO, of which I had another 200+ hrs. I think Cisco was giving an extra week of severance for those with 10+ yrs of service and 2 weeks additional severance for those above 20 yrs of service, so someone w/ 25 yrs would have received 10 weeks for yrs 10-19 and 12 weeks for yrs 20-25, or 22 weeks. There weren't many people w/ 25 yrs of service let go back in '16. Most of the long timers took the early retirement in 2011 unless they were too young to meet the min age of 50 plus 5 yrs of service.

Anyway, good for you for getting 10 mo severance. Most of us only get between 5-6 months.

Not sure why everyone complains about being LR'd.

I received almost 10 months severance pay, plus had another job almost immediately.

This was six years ago.

Has the payout changed?

Mr. Shaw, I recommend you contact the SED (Systems Engineering Director, UK&I) and ask him. Then invert everything he says and that is the truth about LRs. Ask him about attrition ( not related to layoffs) in UK in his own team since he took over in 2019. Then take the opposite of everything he says and those are your facts. Easy-peasy, right? Good luck!

And yes, as another poster has pointed out, very important to remain pot-valiant on parviscient Cisco premises. Once you are done interviewing the UK SED, feel free to run around Building 10 at Bedfont Lakes while giving your middle finger. They have free coffee there too! At Cisco, we aim to please.

Hello Mr. Shaw, you’ve come to the right place.
We can answer your questions, maybe set you up with an AMA on webex teams #SafeSpace
When it comes to layoffs, Thanksgiving or December doesn’t give Cisco HR pause
‘cause they still handing out LR packages like they was gifts from Mr Claus.
But don’t make a list, ‘cause you’re already on one.
I’m gonna buy the family an inground pool, with this year’s raise it won’t be hard
A raise? How about this ConnectedRecognition Amazon gift card?
Technical leadership? Director level and above are all Sales and Marketing clowns
But one thing they do know is all 57 valid gender pronouns.
Well Mr. Shaw I could go on but this should give you somewhere to begin
Who knows, maybe we’ll see you with the ELT on the next Check In.