Thread regarding SAS Institute layoffs

Baloney Detection Kit

The threads on this site are full of arguments about sales and other company what not. Most devolve into t-t-for-tat arguments, similar to those of children playing cops and robbers.

This comment is from a post on Linked In regarding Carl Sagan's advice on "Baloney Detection". It's long, but seems appropriate. ('Company Man' (and Boy) should skip this, as your time is oh-so important.)


Carl Sagan offers timeless advice in his book of which one chapter, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection, is discussed in posted article. I add comments to eight of his “tools” describing how today’s hypesters of technology and hashtag#startups are contradicting the essence of these tools, 30 years after Sagan wrote them.

  1. Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts. Don’t just accept Gartner’s hype cycle, consider multiple sources of facts such as market sizes, profitability, and progress.
  1. Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view. How many hashtag#tech evangelists are willing to enter into a debate, particularly if facts are involved? How many are willing to debate the actual progress towards offering good value to users and extending that value further?
  1. Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. Today’s VCs and entrepreneurs have created huge loss-making companies, yet continue to hype their ideas. Much of the media continues to claim these people are the “authorities,” often times because they are rich.
  1. Spin more than one hypothesis. If there’s something to be explained, think of all the different ways in which it could be explained. How many experts will admit that the huge losses and small markets suggest there is a problem with a general idea/technology. Instead, they will argue that users don’t understand or they are resisting the new hashtag#technology when the new technology just isn’t good enough.
  1. Then think of tests by which you might systematically disprove each of the alternatives. What survives, the hypothesis that resists disproof in this Darwinian selection among multiple working hypotheses, has a much better chance of being the right answer than if you had simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy. Go back to facts such as profitability and market size and debates about actual progress.
  1. Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it’s yours. Today’s VCs and entrepreneurs are stuck because they invested their lives in an idea, and there is no going back. Even engineers feel they must keep claiming eventual success because they have invested years of their lives in something.
  1. Quantify. If whatever it is you’re explaining has some measure, some numerical quantity attached to it, you’ll be much better able to discriminate among competing hypotheses. Try hashtag#startup profits and technology market sizes.
  1. If there’s a chain of argument, every link in the chain must work (including the premise) — not just most of them. One weakness in a new technology can keep it from succeeding. The challenge is to find that weakness, and then solve it, not to bury the weakness below a bunch of hashtag#hype.
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| 2656 views | | 33 replies (last December 16, 2024) | Reply
Post ID: @OP+1vWnUihQ

33 replies (most recent on top)

@4jsm+1vWnUihQ

What about Prego Studio? That should allow for some growth. Viya can be used next to old Procs. If Viya runs faster and produces the same answers that the Procs produced, Analysts can make an argument for it. It may be of benefit in regulated industries such as big pharma.

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Post ID: @4nld+1vWnUihQ

"’Viya can still be positioned as a potential growth story.’

How? And what has prevented that from happening?”

I believe the key word there is “potential.” A .0001% probability of growth does technically equate to “potential growth.” Truly soulless marketing can construe anything that’s not stone cold dead as a potential growth story. See “up to a 50% increase.”

As to what’s prevented that from happening with Viya, I believe it’s that SAS marketing isn’t 100% soulless. But hey, there’s always potential. 😉

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Post ID: @4jsm+1vWnUihQ

@4pun+1vWnUihQ That distinction is seemingly lost here.
I don’t understand how it became lost spot begin with.

It is pretty black and white.

But I got accused of ignoring published data when I first said that.

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Post ID: @4hbv+1vWnUihQ

The revenue stream is not declining, it's steady. However, the purchasing power of that revenue stream is declining.

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Post ID: @4pun+1vWnUihQ

well, AI is a growth story. every day in the business news, it's almost all that's talked about. NVDA is overweighting all of the major indexes. Palantir has joined the NASDAQ 100. Viya? not sure the comments section here can explain it. maybe the IPO prospectus will provide a better story.

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Post ID: @3icx+1vWnUihQ

SAS’ public comments position both Viya and AI as potential growth stories. See e.g.

https://itbrief.com.au/story/exclusive-sas-cto-discusses-generative-models-global-reach

This positioning is unlikely to motivate a private buyer. A private buyer will lay out $5-10B for the reliable $3B revenue stream. For acquirers such as Broadcom, their business model is milking declining revenue streams — not speculating on potential growth.

But of course growth prospects are extremely helpful to an IPO.

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Post ID: @3uet+1vWnUihQ

"Viya can still be positioned as a potential growth story."

How? And what has prevented that from happening?

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Post ID: @3sao+1vWnUihQ

“With each day the prospects for a sale become tougher.”

Agreed. After three years of continued decline, no acquirer is likely to offer a better deal than Broadcom.

An acquirer will consider inflation, so will view SAS as a declining revenue stream.

In contrast, the general public is less likely to consider inflation, so may view SAS revenues as steady.

This is why I believe SAS will IPO in 2025. At this time, the market is reasonably favorable, and Viya can still be positioned as a potential growth story. SAS has a window of opportunity.

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Post ID: @3itj+1vWnUihQ

Ever since Viya was released, revenue has been flat. No bologna there, just facts.

If Viya was a hit(it is not), we would be seeing growing revenue because Viya's revenue would more than offset V9's declining revenue. But, sadly, that is not the case. Potential buyers recognize this. Once the SAS financials become up to standards, this situation will be even more easily noticeable to potential buyers. No bologna.

IMO, SAS should have found a way to make the Broadcom deal work because with each day the prospects for a sale become tougher.

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Post ID: @3znp+1vWnUihQ

And yes I understand that inflation impacts everything.

But “Numbers published by SAS Institute show ~20% declines in revenues” is just downright misleading.

When someone asks your salary do you say “My salary shows a 5% decline”? You say “my salary is ~310k” or whatever it is versus trying to communicate that your salary is worth less than last year due to inflation. You add words like net and gross to distinguish what you mean. But without any distinction it means gross.

Is it worth having conversations about inflation? Of course. But that is not the baseline measurement of revenue.

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Post ID: @3rzb+1vWnUihQ

Yeah now show the full ChatGPT prompt where you specifically asked it to adjust revenue for inflation. One again you blur things together and try to hide it.

Here I’ll do a much simpler (and unneeded) ai prompt
Me: “ A companies stated revenue is 3.1 billion. What is its revenue?”

ChatGPT (and any accountant): “ If a company states that its revenue is 3.1 billion, then its revenue is exactly that: 3.1 billion. In numerical form, that's $3,100,000,000. Whether we're talking dollars, euros, yen, or another currency, the meaning remains the same.”

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Post ID: @3qzl+1vWnUihQ

"ChatGPT, please show your work...."

Step 1: Calculate the cumulative inflation factor
The formula is:
Cumulative Inflation Factor = (1 + Annual Inflation Rate) ^ Years

Substitute the values:
Cumulative Inflation Factor = (1 + 0.025) ^ 10 = 1.28008

Step 2: Adjust the revenue for inflation
The formula is:
Real Revenue = Nominal Revenue / Cumulative Inflation Factor

Substitute the values:
Real Revenue = 3,000,000,000 / 1.28008 ≈ 2,343,595,205

Step 3: Calculate the percentage decline
The formula is:
Percentage Decline = (1 - Real Revenue / Nominal Revenue) × 100

Substitute the values:
Percentage Decline = (1 - 2,343,595,205 / 3,000,000,000) × 100
Percentage Decline = (1 - 0.7812) × 100 ≈ 21.88%

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Post ID: @3yxz+1vWnUihQ

“Numbers published by SAS Institute show ~20% declines in revenues”

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Post ID: @3ide+1vWnUihQ

"We agree that nominal revenues have been flat for at least ten years, and therefore inflation-adjusted revenues have declined. I believe we’re all sorry this decline is happening, at a company we loved."

Thought it was clear and expecting people to understand economics 101 is reasonable.

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Post ID: @2vzj+1vWnUihQ

This thread exemplifies one of the 'religious battles' the company seems to foment. It's like two sides arguing about the existence of God, but neither can provide evidence that he/she exists -- we have to take the company's word as 'gospel', and have 'faith' without challenge. Just the fact that you questioned a statement is seen as blasphemy. It's ridiculous.

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Post ID: @2juu+1vWnUihQ

@2syg+1vWnUihQ 



SAS Institute always reports a little over $3B in annual revenues, and has for many years. This figure has been published on this site in multiple threads, and most people on this site have worked at SAS, so I assumed that people knew it.


If you believed the phrase “~20% declines in revenues and headcount” referred to nominal revenues, I didn’t say that. But I also didn’t say they were inflation-adjusted revenues. If you found the lack of an adjective misleading, I am sorry.

I did not include either adjective, because I thought the figures were well-known. Also, in context, the two declines are cause and effect: when revenues decline, so must headcount.

We agree that nominal revenues have been flat for at least ten years, and therefore inflation-adjusted revenues have declined. I believe we’re all sorry this decline is happening, at a company we loved.

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Post ID: @2cbr+1vWnUihQ

@2etv+1vWnUihQ You are really dogmatic when you are wrong. Revenue is well defined. You either don’t understand what it is or just refuse to admit your wording was wrong and misleading, You cited sources when asked and those sources do not even say what you assert.

“ Numbers published by SAS Institute show ~20% declines in revenues”

That is incorrect and you haven’t cited a source that actually agrees with you unless you count yourself as a valid source.

“ Maybe in some fantasy world, nominal revenues matter, and a company may be happy if they are flat.
But in the real world, inflation matters; and flat revenues cannot maintain flat headcount.”

Of course SAS would rather have increasing revenues. But flat is way better than declining.
Of course inflation matters. But it doesn’t alter the revenue number in the way you claim.

Talk to a corporate accountant if you don’t believe me and the other person on here telling you.

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Post ID: @2syg+1vWnUihQ

‘Numbers published by SAS Institute show ~20% declines in revenues and headcount.“

Yes, of course I stand by that. I did not say “nominal revenues”, because nominal revenues do not matter.

Maybe in some fantasy world, nominal revenues matter, and a company may be happy if they are flat.

But in the real world, inflation matters; and flat revenues cannot maintain flat headcount.

Headcount must consider salaries, benefits, utilities, etc. — all affected by inflation.

That is why SAS has layoffs.

SAS lives in the real world, where inflation-adjusted revenues have declined. For this reason, headcount has also declined.

This is not a point on which rational people disagree. It’s just math.

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Post ID: @2etv+1vWnUihQ

@2dbp+1vWnUihQ I’m not the person who said that originally.

But fwiw you are correct. Nominal revenue is not down 20% as they stated.

The revenue has less value in the world but that doesn’t mean revenue declined.

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Post ID: @2uzc+1vWnUihQ

So you stand by “ Numbers published by SAS Institute show ~20% declines in revenues”?

Even though the links you provided do not actually say that.

You don’t need to adjust for inflation. That is not the same thing as revenue declining by 20%

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Post ID: @2dbp+1vWnUihQ

I find this discussion fascinating. It’s not like some sinister party is trying to hurt SAS by fudging the inflation numbers. That's not something we can rationally disagree about; it's just math.

Also, we all know that SAS is a private company. Therefore, although the sources I linked are reputable, the original source is always SAS Institute; it has to be.

And if SAS Institute doesn’t deny the facts, why would you?

As far as I can discover, SAS does not maintain past annual reports on its website. Both WRAL TechWire and Wikipedia use numbers that SAS reported in previous years. These numbers show flat revenues for the past decade.

In the past decade, the US has had ~35% inflation. That equates to a ~26% decline in revenues. The most recent annual report did not give a specific revenue figure, stating only that it was “above $3B”. So, being generous, perhaps the decline is only 20%. It's somewhere in that ballpark.

A decline of 80% in new sales sounds extreme, but is certainly believable. Most revenues at this point are not new sales, but renewals.

What I find fascinating is the ability of people to ignore numbers, to simply refuse facts that would help them. I don’t know what motivates that. But it’s here.

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Post ID: @2sev+1vWnUihQ

I understand the difference between sales and revenue. But either way using inflation the way you did is misleading at best.

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Post ID: @2smc+1vWnUihQ

"The sales are flat. Not down 20% like you infer."

Sales is different to revenue. I would not be surprised if sales are down more like 80%. Most of the revenue comes from renewals - customers who would love to switch SAS off, but can't quite manage to do so...yet.

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Post ID: @1byx+1vWnUihQ

Now you are onto something. “ Numbers published by SAS Institute show ~20% declines in revenues”

Show me in the annual reports you linked where it shows REVENUE down by 20%….

You don’t need to adjust for inflation for SAS. They can do that just fine on their own.

The sales are flat. Not down 20% like you infer.

Inflation isn’t something SAS can control. Yes the revenue they are bringing in is worth less than it used to be. But it hasn’t dropped by 20% which is an entirely different beast.

By that measure I bet half the people on here have “taken pay cuts” in recent years.

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Post ID: @1kzx+1vWnUihQ

"This is flat growth — only if we assume zero inflation. In the real world, adjusted for inflation, this is a decline of about 20%."

Ran it through an online inflation calculator and it's more like a decline of around 35%:

$3,010,000,000 in 2013 is worth $4,078,643,869.90 today.

Ouch!

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Post ID: @1mkw+1vWnUihQ

“Link your sources.”

Read the SAS website.

Every year, SAS Institute publishes an annual report. Its contents are also reported by multiple media outlets.

Annual revenue is a little over $3 Billion. It’s always a little over $3B; it has been for the past decade.

2013, $3.01 billion

2016, $3.20 billion

2017, $3.24 billion

2018, $3.27 billion

2019, $3.10 billion

2020, $3.00 billion

2022, $3.20 billion

This is flat growth — only if we assume zero inflation. In the real world, adjusted for inflation, this is a decline of about 20%.


Not surprisingly, as revenues decline, so must headcount. In 2022, SAS claimed over 14,000 employees. Today, headcount is around 12,000.

Again, these are SAS Institute’s own numbers. SAS doesn’t deny the facts, nor should anyone else.


https://www.sas.com/content/dam/SAS/documents/corporate-collateral/annual-report/company-overview-annual-report.pdf


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAS_Institute

https://wraltechwire.com/2021/05/18/the-state-of-sas-after-5-years-of-flat-revenue-growth-may-be-returning-in-2021/

https://blogs.sas.com/content/efs/2022/03/29/the-future-of-work-is-here-and-its-hybrid/

https://blogs.sas.com/content/sascom/2024/09/27/big-company-problems-small-company-resources/

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Post ID: @1oyc+1vWnUihQ

“ Numbers published by SAS Institute show ~20% declines in revenues and headcount. Viya sales have not offset that decline.

As another poster has written, if Viya were selling well, SAS would happily publicize those numbers, not keep them confidential.”

Link your sources

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Post ID: @1nkz+1vWnUihQ

You dismiss LinkedIn data as “not useful” without stating any reason.

It doesn’t take a “great imagination” to see from LinkedIn, or any other job site, that companies are not hiring many Viya experts.

Numbers published by SAS Institute show ~20% declines in revenues and headcount. Viya sales have not offset that decline.

As another poster has written, if Viya were selling well, SAS would happily publicize those numbers, not keep them confidential.

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Post ID: @1ykw+1vWnUihQ

“ aka "Massive Sagan fan", do you have data?”

But conjecture isn’t data. So I won’t share that kind of “data”. And I won’t share LinkedIn job postings which is data but not terribly useful unless you have a great imagination.

I do have some real data but nothing that should be shared here as it is company confidential. If you work there you can see it yourself. If you choose to ignore/disbelieve it then what can I say?

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Post ID: @1ckx+1vWnUihQ

“ but the thought and effort I put into poking at you is far less than the vehemence of your defense.”

Ok that is something I can appreciate as a fellow “poker”. Maybe we would actually get along in real life.

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Post ID: @dgz+1vWnUihQ

#7 is particularly appropriate. In our discussions, one side brings data; the other does not.

@gnl+1vWnUihQ aka "Massive Sagan fan", do you have data?

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Post ID: @two+1vWnUihQ

Oh, it may be irony, but the thought and effort I put into poking at you is far less than the vehemence of your defense.

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Post ID: @mzj+1vWnUihQ

“ It's long, but seems appropriate. ('Company Man' (and Boy) should skip this, as your time is oh-so important.)”

I’m one of the people you would “label” company man (or boy) in a childishly dismissive way.

And I’ve been a massive Sagan fan since I was a child in the 60s. I’ve read virtually everything he ever published and watched all of his shows.

You should reflect on what you just posted and the reread your final paragraph to see how very un-Saganish your words actually are. Irony is thick.

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Post ID: @gnl+1vWnUihQ

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