Thread regarding 3M layoffs

Despite the lies, the facts will come out and people will be held accountable, including the company for billions and billions of dollars. The best disinfectant is light.

It’s laughable to look at 3M as a credible arbiter of “the truth” about PFAS. Just look at how well 3M has done manufacturing this garbage at its highly contaminated sites in Minnesota, Illinois, Alabama, and Belgium. Gimme a break.

https://www.pca.state.mn.us/local-sites-and-projects/east-metro-3m-pfas-contamination

https://www.twincities.com/2022/05/26/3m-fined-2-8m-for-mismanaging-waste-at-cottage-grove-facility/amp/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M_Contamination_of_Minnesota_Groundwater

https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2022-11/Final.signed.AOC%20SDWA%201431.3M%20Cordova%20IL.Nov_.%2003%202022_1.pdf

https://cen.acs.org/environment/persistent-pollutants/3M-admits-unlawful-release-PFAS-in-Alabama/97/i26

https://www.regulations.gov/document/EPA-HQ-OW-2020-0582-0059

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2022-3m-pfas-toxic-forever-chemicals-europe/

https://m.startribune.com/3m-under-fire-in-belgium-over-company-s-handling-of-pfas-pollution/600097157/

Beautiful example of gaslighting by non-educated derelicts who defend the 3M corporate line (and lie) that PFAS isn’t dangerous to all living beings.

They are part of the same group who believe that Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin prevent / treat COVID-19.

Nuts!

@smkt+1nt0lPcx

The Prop 65 list is really a terrible, terrible list to consider definitive for anything.

Some choice Prop 65 entries going down the list:
(Source - https://oehha.ca.gov/proposition-65/proposition-65-list)

• Aspirin - Aspirin is literally on the list.
• Bitumens - That is a fancy way of saying asphalt road are cancerous.
• Doxycycline - Antibiotic - prescribed every day in the US and around the world.
• Estrogens - People are carcinogens.
• Nickel (metal) - Basically everything made of stainless steel has to be Prop 65 listed.
• Salted fish, Chinese-style - Apparently if you have it Thai style it's safe?
• Testosterone - Yep, we're all carcinogens, again.
• delta-9 THC - I'd cut back on whatever it is you are smoking these days.
• Unleaded Gasoline
• Warfarin - The classic 'blood-thinner' dr-g, used every day by many, many people.
• Wood dust

Anything else you want to cause a panic with based on terrible data?

PFOA is on the Proposition 65 list because it can cause birth defects or other reproductive harm. Exposure to PFOA during pregnancy may affect the development of the child. PFOA is also on the Proposition 65 list because it can cause cancer. Exposure to this chemical may increase the risk of cancer. Proposition 65 requires businesses to determine if they must provide a warning about significant exposure to listed chemicals.

@soeb+1nt0lPcx

"3M polluted the world. Fact."

• Yes and so did you and everyone else on the planet.

"PFAS and PFOS is hazardous. Fact."

• First, it is "are hazardous" due to plurality.
• Second, Yes and so are air, water, sugar, alcohol, gravity, paper, my family's enchilada sauce recipe, and everything else. Hazardous isn't black and white, it is all gray.

"Anything said to the contrary is pure fantasy."

• You haven't said anything meaningful, so... congrats?

3M polluted the world. Fact. PFAS and PFOS is hazardous. Fact. Anything said to the contrary is pure fantasy.

@qkxc+1nt0lPcx

Nobody is claiming that. The standard that applies is 'safe', not 'absolutely pure'. Nothing, I mean literally no macroscopic-sized physical substance is absolutely pure.

I hate to break it to you, but the drinking water maximums for all sorts of things, even really nasty things with clear direct ties to human harm (like PCBs, Lead, Arsenic, Uranium) are all non-zero.

@sykv+1nt0lPcx

No wonder 3M is screwed. They have people speaking with absolute certainty that PFAS is not k-i-l-l-i-n-g people without any scientific evidence or research to back it up. If PFAS is not k-i-l-l-i-n-g people, why is the human lifespan continually decreasing? You’d figure we’d all be living forever since you’ve been consuming “forever chemicals” your entire life via non-stick cookware and Teflon tape in your plumbing for pipe thread wrapping.

Delusional non-scientific people spreading “lies” as scientific fact. That’s the world we live in. Sad.

@pkko+1nt0lPcx

No wonder 3M is screwed. They have people speaking with absolute certainty that PFAS is ki-ling people without any scientific evidence or research to back it up. If PFAS is ki-ling people, why is the human lifespan continually increasing? You’d figure we’d all be dropping like flies since you’ve been consuming “forever chemicals” your entire life via non-stick cookware and Teflon tape in your plumbing for pipe thread wrapping.

Delusional non-scientific people spreading “opinion” as scientific fact. That’s the world we live in. Sad.

The negative effects of PFAS on the health of human beings are incontrovertible.

If the 3M actually claimed “all PFAS compounds” will be removed, and the finished water will be pure, then they’re full-blown liars still engaged in deceiving the community so they can sell water that will ki-l some people.

Denial of PFAS effects is p-o-p-p-y-c-o-c-k.

We heard a dozen CEOs, under oath, state they did not spike their cigarettes with nicotine and cigarettes were not addictive.

Tobacco companies lied and PFAS manufacturers are following the same losing playbook.

@7asz+1nt0lPcx

Incorrect. Settling is not an admission of guilt. It is proven time and time again that juries are overlooking the lack of evidence on the scientific end and just punishing corporations based on opinions and feelings. Like the earplugs lawsuit… shouldn’t the soldiers with damaged hearing have to prove they were actually using the ear plugs and using them correctly every single time? Not in todays world, the company is just automatically punished without scientific data to back the alleged damages.

Each article that says that PFAS is toxic, basically states that they can’t prove it definitively and that more research is needed… yet there is no reproducible mechanism in which PFAS is harmful. “Linked” does not mean “caused”.

@7fei+1nt0lPcx

You are exactly correct.

@7fhq+1nt0lPcx

do you think 3M would pay billions in damages if our products did zero harm? Paying out a settlement is an admission of guilt... period. If 3M had a legitimate legal defense, they would pay the lawyers instead of paying state and federal governments.

3M toxicologist Richard Purdy did a study in 1998 to see whether any of the company’s perfluorochemicals showed up in the blood of eagles and albatrosses.

That seemed unlikely, given the birds’ diet consists mostly of fish. So Purdy was surprised and disturbed when he found levels in their blood similar to those found in human blood. It even showed up in bald eagle nestlings whose only food was fish their parents fed them from remote lakes.

That indicated what Purdy later called “widespread environmental contamination” — the likelihood the manmade, toxic chemicals were moving through the food chain and accumulating in animals.

Purdy warned 3M that if wild birds’ blood contained the chemicals, then fish-eating mammals — like otters, mink, porpoise and seals — could have it, too. A study of rats found they had significant levels of a 3M chemical in their livers, likely from eating fishmeal.

He told company officials in an email there was a significant risk of ecological harm, which should be reported to the EPA.

In response, 3M managers dispersed the team collecting the data, Purdy alleged.

Purdy resigned in 1999 and sent his resignation letter to the EPA, informing them that while 3M had disclosed to the EPA that a chemical called PFOS “had been found in the blood of animals,” it didn’t mention that it was found in the blood of eaglets.

The EPA began investigating the chemicals that year. But by then, 3M had reaped billions of dollars in profits from chemicals that the company had been warned were harming the environment and risking human health.

The per-and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) had spread — through groundwater and products like Scotchgard stain repellent, Teflon cookware, food wrapping and fire re--rdant — and were showing up in the blood of people and animals in every corner of the world. They were in nearly every living thing, from house dust to human blood, in wildlife in the Arctic circle and drinking water, rivers, streams and br---t milk.

Purdy’s warnings were clear, as revealed by former Attorney General Attorney General Lori Swanson, who sued 3M in 2010, alleging the company failed for decades to report that its chemicals could be toxic to humans, animals and the environment, keeping information from regulators and scientists to protect its lucrative revenue stream.

The morning the case was set to go to trial in 2018, after 22 hours of negotiation, 3M and the state settled. 3M agreed to pay $850 million to help provide Minnesotans clean drinking water.

The settlement with Minnesota is the third largest natural resource damage settlement in U.S. history, behind the Deepwater Horizon and Exxon Valdez oil spills.

But it amounted to just 2.6% of 3M’s nearly $33 billion in revenue in 2018.

The company admitted nothing, and maintains to this day that its chemicals have no adverse health or environmental consequences.

3M spokesman Grant Thompson said in an email that 3M’s position reflects the weight of scientific evidence from decades of research showing exposure to PFOA and PFOS at current and historical levels found in people and the environment has not been shown to cause adverse health effects.

Published 7:59 PM CDT, June 22, 2023

TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (AP) — Chemical manufacturer 3M Co. will pay at least $10.3 billion to settle lawsuits over contamination of many U.S. public drinking water systems with potentially harmful compounds used in firefighting foam and a host of consumer products, the company said Thursday.

The deal would compensate water providers for pollution with per- and polyfluorinated substances, known collectively as PFAS — a broad class of chemicals used in nonstick, water- and grease-resistant products such as clothing and cookware.

Described as “forever chemicals” because they don’t degrade naturally in the environment, PFAS have been linked to a variety of health problems, including liver and immune-system damage and some cancers.

3M chairman Mike Roman said the deal was “an important step forward” that builds on the company’s decision in 2020 to phase out PFOA and PFOS and its investments in “state-of-the-art water filtration technology in our chemical manufacturing operations.” The company, based in St. Paul, Minnesota, will halt all PFAS production by the end of 2025, he said.

A lawsuit filed by Minnesota against 3M, the company that first developed and sold PFOS and PFOA, the two best-known PFAS compounds, has revealed that the company knew that these chemicals were accumulating in people’s blood for more than 40 years. 3M researchers documented the chemicals in fish, just as the Michigan scientist did, but they did so back in the 1970s. That same decade, 3M scientists realized that the compounds they produced were toxic. The company even had evidence back then of the compounds’ effects on the immune system, studies of which are just now driving the lower levels put forward by the ATSDR, as well as several states and the European Union.

A new study by Harvard researchers finds that communities of color are more exposed to per- and polyfluorinated substances, the toxic “forever chemicals” colloquially known as PFAS. These chemicals used in industrial facilities, military fire training areas, airports and waste facilities have been linked to cancer and other illnesses.

The study published in the journal Environmental Science & Technology, examined over 44,000 water samples from nearly 8,000 communities across 18 states and found that Black and brown people face significantly greater odds of receiving water contaminated with PFAS compared to white communities.

It’s the first peer reviewed study to examine the relationship between PFAS contamination and risk in communities of color. Lead author Jahred Liddie told Grist, “We know that there’s the forces of discrimination, segregation that kind of shape how pollution around the U.S. is patterned.” Historic redlining cited industrial sites that are often the source of PFAS and other pollution near communities of color.

@6jcr+1nt0lPcx

Now I see why 3M has a PR problem, not a health problem with PFAS. Not a single person here has been able to cite an actual scientifically sound study that definitively links the chemistry to actual health problems. Again, correlation is not causation.

Opinions are that PFAS is toxic, not scientific facts (if true, please link smoking g-n article that proves so…”. Science doesn’t work like “just wait in 10 years and they’ll prove it”. Science works off of current reproducible data…. Not feelings that the data will exist in the future. The hypothesis isn’t based in reality.

Can tell there really aren’t any scientists in this discussion. Makes sense.

What did 3M know and when did they know it?

1947: 3M starts mass-manufacturing PFOA, one of the best-known members in a family of thousands of fluorochemicals called PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances).

1951: DuPont starts using PFOA to make Teflon.

1953: A close relative of PFOA – a chemical called PFOS – is accidentally spilled on a 3M chemist’s tennis shoe. It leaves a coating that repels oil and water. Scotchgard is born.

1960s: 3M and the U.S. Navy develop “aqueous film-forming foam” (AFFF), a firefighting foam containing PFOS and PFOA. Animal and human studies link the chemicals to liver damage.

1970s: Military sites, civilian airports and firefighting training centers start using AFFF worldwide. Research by 3M finds that the PFOA and PFOS are toxic.

1980s: A U.S. Navy study finds that AFFF has “adverse effects environmentally” and ki-ls aquatic life. Research at 3M proves that employees have PFOA and PFOS in their blood. DuPont discovers that PFOA passes from a mother to her unborn baby via the umbilical cord.

1999: The EPA and 3M find that PFOS contamination is appearing at blood banks around the country. A farmer sues DuPont after scores of his cattle mysteriously die in Parkersburg, West Virginia. It is revealed at trial that the nearby DuPont plant dumped tons of PFOA into a local landfill, poisoning the cattle’s water supply – and the Ohio River, polluting the drinking water of some 80,000 people.

2000: 3M announces it will voluntarily halt production of PFOA and PFOS – technically known as “long-chain” chemicals – and will stop putting them in products by 2002. It starts creating new “short-chain” PFAS formulations that are similarly hazardous, scientists say.

2005: An EPA advisory panel concludes that PFOA is a “likely” human carcinogen.

2006: An EPA program encourages all major manufacturers to stop making long-chain PFAS, citing potential birth defects and other risks. DuPont and others agree to phase out production by 2015; like 3M, they start making new varieties, none proven safe.

2007: PFOS and PFOA are estimated to be in the blood serum of more than 98 percent of Americans.

2009: The EPA issues a non-enforceable “lifetime drinking water health advisory,” recommending a maximum of 200 parts per trillion for PFOS and 400 ppt for PFOA.

2011: The Department of Defense acknowledges the PFAS crisis in an internal study: 594 military sites are likely to have contaminated groundwater, it says.

2012: The EPA directs large public water systems to test for PFAS. The results suggest that as many as 110 million Americans are exposed to PFAS in their drinking water, the Environmental Working Group finds.

2012: A landmark medical study finds a probable link between PFOA exposure and six diseases: testicular cancer, kidney cancer, high cholesterol, ulcerative colitis, thyroid disease and pregnancy-induced hypertension.

2016: The EPA issues a far stricter lifetime health advisory level for PFOA and PFOS in drinking water: 70 ppt.

March 2018: The Pentagon’s 2011 prediction comes true with a vengeance – PFAS contamination is detected at 121 military sites and suspected at hundreds of others. At least 564 drinking-water supplies in nearby communities have PFAS levels that exceed the EPA’s health advisory.

August 2018: Clovis dairy farmer Art Schaap finds out from the Air Force that PFOA and PFOS pollution from Cannon Air Force Base has contaminated his wells, his land, his cows and their milk. One of Schaap’s wells has a concentration of 12,000 ppt, nearly 171 times higher than the EPA health advisory level.

Only after the last tree has been cut down. Only after the last river has been poisoned. Only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.

– Cree Indian Prophecy

PS: Silly site edited my last comment.

PFOS and PFOA, the original C8 PFAS bad boys that everyone has found everywhere on the planet are still being made at full industrial scale by non-3M companies overseas.

@6jrt+1nt0lPcx - You missed the last act in your little play.

Me: Still do not want

Society in general: We like airplanes, computers, and medicines. We have money and those things are going to be made by someone, so tough sh-t.

3M: We're out of the PFAS business, good luck with the foreign manufacturers.

Me: ...

3M: I placed a bag of garbage (PFOA) on your property (blood). It’ll be there for several years (half-life).
Me: Do not want.
3M: Too late.
Me: Do not want.
3M: It’s not hurting anything (low hazard).
Me: Do not want.
3M: It’s only one bag (low exposure).
Me: Do not want.
3M: You can still use your yard (No effects at the levels typically observed in the environment).
Me: Listen a--hole, I still do not want.
3M: I make critical things for this world. Airplanes and computers won’t be possible if I don’t put this garbage in your yard (it’s essential).
Me: Still do not want.

The scientific questions surrounding hazard, exposure, and risks of PFAS somewhat misses the mark. Those questions will be slowly answered over the coming decade(s) in the scientific community as well as in the courtroom. The more interesting bit is 3M’s relationship with this class of chemistry for well over half a century. It is an Icarus story of complete and utter hubris.

At every turn, 3M chose to further inflate, rather than deflate, its enterprise risk balloon. Decade after decade after decade. Eventually that balloon popped over the last year and the recent 11-figure settlement with US municipal water suppliers is the result. There are more settlements to come. And quite deservedly so.

The bar for manufacturing non-polymeric chemicals, some of which bioaccumulate and most of which are mobile in various environmental compartments (air, water, soil), ought to be exceedingly high when those compounds will: (1) persist in the environment for forever (resulting in potentially chronic low level exposures over an entire lifetime) and (2) are extraordinarily difficult to recapture from the environment and just as difficult to fully destroy. The public doesn’t want a company’s chemicals in their blood for a period of years, without regard to whether or not the level of exposure creates unacceptable risk. Period.

3M knowingly manufactured persistent chemicals for more than a half a century before making a minor course correction to stop making the bioaccumulative variants. Thus came the C-8 phaseout in 2000. That was the time to gracefully exit PFAS manufacturing in its entirety and ring fence the potential liability. But oh no, there was money to be made if the chemistry could be retooled to shorter chain, less bioaccumulating versions. What ensued was the manufacture of compounds that were equally as persistent as before, but much more mobile. So, even after a quarter century after the phase out, 3M continues to proliferate the short chain chemistry not only in its products, but also in the areas surrounding its manufacturing facilities. The on-going PFAS emissions surrounding 3M facilities in the US and Europe over the past quarter century since the 2000 phaseout—much of which has been publicized—is simply horrendous, unethical, and immoral.

People deserve to not have 3M’s chemicals in their blood. They deserve to be able to drink their water, free of 3M chemicals. They deserve to fish and hunt on their own land. They deserve to eat the eggs from their chickens, without having to consume 3M PFOS. It’s not complicated. And you don’t need hazard/risk assessments to arrive at the conclusion that PFAS was just as much a bad business to be in 23 years ago as it is today.

@6iat+1nt0lPcx

It is called nuance, you should look it up sometime. Professionals use it, along with those pesky formulas you mentioned to communicate how the world around us actually is.

@Bert

Yep, the drinking water safe level is going to be very, very low. I'm not sure about under 1 part per trillion (1 ng/L), but it will be well below 1 part per billion for sure.

A better question is what are we (as a society, not 3M) going to do with all the applications that require PFAS materials for technical reasons. There really isn't a simple substitute for PTFE's physical and chemical properties and PTFE is specified in a lot of critical places.

Wow, we now have people defending dangerous toxins and bad business decisions that result in layoffs and cancer. I still believe in right and wrong, and these chemicals are not good for people or the environment.

~ No formula required

My $0.02 worth …

Since PFAS is found in hundreds of items, each item must be examined and an independent exposure determination made. For example, drinking water exposure is significantly different than material on a raincoat or what is in carpet. How often do you cook with non-stick cookware?

Drinking water has been identified as a substantial source of PFAS exposure for many populations, particularly those living near contaminated sites. The United States Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA) proposed a lifetime health advisory level for PFOS+PFOA of 70 ng/L in drinking water in 2016. In 2018, the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) in the United States further lowered the Minimum Risk Levels (MRLs) for PFOS and PFOA by approximately an order of magnitude compared to the reference dose (RfD) used by the U.S. EPA to develop the 2016 lifetime advisory. Drinking water advisory levels corresponding to the MRLs used by ATSDR would be 11 ng/L for PFOA and 7 ng/L for PFOS. Some lifetime drinking water advisories proposed by other state and international agencies include up to 11 or 12 PFASs (Sweden and Denmark) and range from less than 10 ng/L up to hundreds to thousands of ng/L for different PFASs in Canada. Notably, Grandjean and Burdz-Jorgensen estimated the lifetime drinking water advisory level should be less than 1 ng/L based on the benchmark dose for immunotoxicity associated with PFAS exposure for children in the Faroe Islands.

@6jcr+1nt0lPcx

I agree those statements are incontrovertible. They are also dishonestly incomplete.

PFAS is liked to ____ - Okay, at what dose and for how long?

I will even give you the counter example with actual data:

Incomplete Statement: (absolutely true, but again dishonestly incomplete)
Oxygen causes acute toxic effects, ultimately leading to death of otherwise healthy people. That is an accurate statement, but again incomplete.

Complete version:
Oxygen causes acute toxic effects, starting when inhaled at a partial pressure over 0.5 bar (or about 7.5 psi, or about 3.5 times normal air) for several hours, ultimately leading to death of otherwise healthy people.

If you want to convince educated people, try making complete toxicity statements.

“At 3M, we apply science in collaborative ways to improve lives daily.”

PFAS is dangerous and generates significant health risks to human beings.

Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin do not prevent or cure COVID-19.

Deniers (i.e. science, election, vaccine) have caused and are causing irreparable damage to the United States.

PFAS have now been linked to a wide range of health risks in both human and animal studies—including cancer (kidney and testicular), hormone disruption, liver and thyroid problems, interference with vaccine effectiveness, reproductive harm, and abnormal fetal development.

These statements are incontrovertible.

@6khd+1nt0lPcx

Yes!

The first law of toxicology is literally: "The dose makes the poison".

Everything is toxic, without exception, in a large enough dose. (including air and water)

Everything is non-toxic, without exception, in a non-zero but small enough dose.

Calling anything 'toxic' without including exposure doses and doses that are likely to cause harm is just proving the speaker's ignorance.

@5dif+1nt0lPcx

Again, please articulate how the chemicals are toxic in the levels present. Just because they exist or accumulate does not mean they are automatically toxic. Keep seeing they are so toxic yet no one is articulating how or what they are doing to the body to deem toxic.

Again: just because they are detected doesn’t mean they are automatically toxic.

Please, enlighten us beyond “it exists”

@5dif+1nt0lPcx (Turn on your reading comprehension)

PFAS accumulates in the liver and brain, perfluorohexanoic acid showed the maximum levels (median: 68.3 and 141ng/g, respectively), while perfluorooctanoic acid was the most contributively in bone (median: 20.9ng/g). Lung tissues accumulated the highest concentration of PFASs.

Post ID: @5dif+1nt0lPcx

That ship, like climate change, sailed a long, long, time ago. PFAS is extremely dangerous and 3M is responsible for numerous contamination sites within the US and around the world. In fact, 3M admitted well water contamination in settlements whereby billions to remediate the soil has already been paid.

How alcohol and tobacco impact the human body is well documented; however, governments are willing to allow it as it brings significant revenue to budgets. Drinking PFAS is unlikely to generate many dollars unless one also believes that Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin cure COVID-19.

@5phl+1nt0lPcx

Reading comprehension is important. Existing in the environment isn’t always related to something bad. You need to prove that the chemical existing is actually doing something harmful in a real way. Not correlation, not speculating, but a real repeatable mechanism that can be shown. Hasn’t been done.

It is quite funny that there are firms out there trying to prove something is maybe causing maybe something… possibly… but yet society accepts cigarettes, alcohol, etc etc and we 100% know those things cause cancer and ki-l people yet we are focusing efforts on something that has a 0.00001% of having an actual mechanism to harm you. Feelings based litigation, not grounded in real science.

https://minnesotareformer.com/2022/12/15/toxic-3m-knew-its-chemicals-were-harmful-decades-ago-but-didnt-tell-the-public-government/

The sad part about the whole PFAS issue is that there isn’t 100% conclusive evidence that it is toxic in the amount exposed to humans in the environment. It’s all bad press and feelings based litigation, not grounded in science at all.