Thread regarding SAS Institute layoffs

"Of course I'd buy, at the right price. There’s a right price for everything."

That likely is why the deal with Broadcom fell though. The price was not right for either the buyer or the seller. Guessing the latter and guessing it is going to take much much more time to fix that.

Sluggish Viya sales and SAS discouraging V9 sales is the perfect storm for SAS being a depreciating asset. The best day to sell a dying company was yesterday.

Of course I'd buy, at the right price. There’s a right price for everything.

IBM has no revenue growth either. But people still buy their stock.

IBM’s market cap is about $150B. Their annual revenue is about $60B. So, IBM’s price-to-sales ratio is about 150 / 60 = 2.5.

Applying the same ratio to SAS, on $3B annual revenue, gives a price of $7.5B.


If SAS IPOs 100% of its shares for $5B, I’d buy as many shares as I could afford. Absolutely I would; that’s a bargain. If the price were $20B, I’d decline.

I can't afford to buy the whole company, but Broadcom, or a private equity firm, can. They'll do complex calculations, considering many more factors, not just the simplistic example above.

And will the stock sell? At the right price, absolutely it will.

https://companiesmarketcap.com/ibm/ps-ratio/

Who would want to buy stocks of a company with no revenue growth? Would you buy SAS stocks if it goes public?

Don’t rah. Don’t whine. Just understand your position.

As a long-term plan, selling Viya without V9 compatibility makes no sense.

But for an IPO, it makes perfect sense. 


“Hopefully SAS has a plan. What is it?”

The plan is to IPO. That drives all decisions now.

Oh more whine whine sh-t!

Oh, more rah rah sh-t.

@8nur+1q893tGE
“You are very fortunate to have had that experience. Others weren't so fortunate.”

I’m sure not everyone has been as fortunate but I’ll warrant that a high percentage of SAS employees who are being honest with themselves have had that experience.

"I doubt the majority of posters clamoring for Apple/Google/Facebook-type compensation could get hired ... almost akin to wondering why Tom Brady makes so much more money."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05wJaKtciH0

"From my perspective of an employee for over 30 years, JG has given me a very nice place to work and offered me a nice salary and benefits."

You are very fortunate to have had that experience. Others weren't so fortunate.

"All y'all can eat cake, as far as JG is concerned."

Still don't understand all the hostility. From my perspective of an employee for over 30 years, JG has given me a very nice place to work and offered me a nice salary and benefits.

I'm grateful for what he's provided. And I see a billionaire who lives rather modestly and is still actively engaged in his work at 80 years of age. I doubt the majority of posters clamoring for Apple/Google/Facebook-type compensation could get hired ... almost akin to wondering why Tom Brady makes so much more money.

“Hopefully SAS has a plan. What is it?”

The plan is to continue to gaslight employees and customers until JG's end. After that, it's doesn't really matter.

All y'all can eat cake, as far as JG is concerned.

@OP+1q893tGE

“Hopefully SAS has a plan. What is it?”

SAS plans to support V9 while urging customers to switch to Viya:
https://blogs.sas.com/content/sasdummy/2023/09/29/sas-9-and-sas-eg/

Not making Viya fully compatible with V9 was a terrible mistake because that gives it a high switching cost. This incentivizes more customers to switch away from SAS.

But in the short term, that’s no problem — because switching platforms takes years. So even customers who switch away from SAS won’t drop their licenses until after the IPO.

The IPO drives all decisions now. SAS management knows that R&D can’t achieve compatibility in time to help the IPO.

But Sales and Marketing can increase Viya revenues. Even if Viya revenues don’t compensate for declining V9 revenues, showing the new platform growing helps the IPO.

The overall plan is to IPO. All other plans support the IPO.

@7tff+1q893tGE

The current state of things with Viya and the overall decline of SAS should not be laid at Oliver’s feet.

I can assure you that this story is far more nuanced and based on the historical dynamics and relationships between many official and de facto leaders within SAS — some of which predates Oliver’s initial employment and rise within the company.

Oliver was mostly force for good, especially prior to his holding the joint COO/CTO role. SAS has LONG SUFFERED with a DEARTH of effective leadership, including JG who continue to maintain ultimate control over SAS and has so much personal wealth that his reality is very different from what many others who are much more objective see.

This has been discussed in copious posts on many threads here on SAS@LO.

"The reason SAS is dying is because SAS is too cheap to pay for the real and very best talents that can actually do what he wishes for."

We will never know whether or not they had the ability to create one SAS because they ignored JGs request to do so. If you want to fault JG, go ahead and fault him for not showing the BG the door quick enough.

@6prh+1q893tGE

Depending on your position relative to the mason Dixon line, it can certainly be pronounced “banny”, but yes meant to say “banty”.

A broader summary on my original post could read “corporate window dressing”.

I think @6cdm+1q893tGE meant to say banty rooster, not banny rooster :-)

@6cdm+1q893tGE

Please translate in to English.

He paid big bucks to the wrong people, unfortunately...the ones that do not have the talents to save SAS! Tragedy of his own making!

@6cot+1q893tGE

Here, here … yet he had no problem paying big bucks to dapper-dressed corporate banny roosters and ladder climbing leggs.

"Those who ignored JG's wish above are THE reason SAS is dying."

The reason SAS is dying is because SAS is too cheap to pay for the real and very best talents that can actually do what he wishes for. The talents he had and has at SAS cannot pull off his wish. You get what you pay for!

"Since the early days after the first release of Viya - I sat in MANY R&D Town Hall meetings and heard JG say repeatedly "I want ONE product to offer, NOT TWO" - meaning he wanted the functionality of SAS merged with Viya in order to allow customers to move from SAS 9 to Viya easily. Everyone on the stage (including OS "the German") would nod their heads - leave the meeting - and ignore him."

Those who ignored JG's wish above are THE reason SAS is dying.

I'm not at all surprised that an edict would be given that no new SAS 9 sales would be allowed in 2023... I'm basing this on the fact that a good friend who is an independent SAS consultant called to get a renewal license for his SAS 9 and was told that he could only get a license for Viya - not SAS 9... It took him a while to convince those dimwits in the partners group that he had active jobs with customers IN SAS 9, and both he and SAS would be losing revenue if he was not able to renew his SAS 9 license and keep doing the work.

If you have to make a decision like that - you clearly have a major problem with Viya.

Since the early days after the first release of Viya - I sat in MANY R&D Town Hall meetings and heard JG say repeatedly "I want ONE product to offer, NOT TWO" - meaning he wanted the functionality of SAS merged with Viya in order to allow customers to move from SAS 9 to Viya easily. Everyone on the stage (including OS "the German") would nod their heads - leave the meeting - and ignore him.

I've said this before in other threads - but it was the ego and hubris of OS aka "the German" that was the seed of this disaster. He thought his stuff was so magnificent and incredible that customers - including existing SAS 9 customers - would be FALLING OVER THEMSELVES to adopt it. HE was the one who decided initially that NO SAS 9 would be included in Viya, and fought tooth and nail when it became crystal clear that there HAD to be SAS 9 pieces parts included in Viya.

I'm so thankful that I was old enough that when I got let go this summer, I could go ahead and easily transistion into retirement - and escape the insanity that is becoming unbearable for many of my friends still needing a job and heavily invested in SAS as a career.

"I was at a patent reception in January 2018 (I believe), and something very odd and out of place happened. JG stood up and said something to the effect that "This Viya thing is not selling. Maybe we're ahead of the customer. " And then said something to indicate that it better start selling. It was so out of place. Some speculated that he was taking a public slap at Oliver because apparently, they were having some sort of disagreement (seems like everyone knew about that except me ;)"

"IIRC, that's about the same time Oliver went on stage at one of the R&D Town Halls and said "as my time here at SAS comes to an end..." that had everyone in such a tizzy."

OS left SAS in January 2021 so did he really last another 3 years after getting the hint that he might have been in trouble with JG since 2018 regarding Viya not selling?

@5wsr+1q893tGE

"I was at a patent reception in January 2018 (I believe), and something very odd and out of place happened. JG stood up and said something to the effect that "This Viya thing is not selling. Maybe we're ahead of the customer. " And then said something to indicate that it better start selling. It was so out of place. Some speculated that he was taking a public slap at Oliver because apparently, they were having some sort of disagreement (seems like everyone knew about that except me ;)"

IIRC, that's about the same time Oliver went on stage at one of the R&D Town Halls and said "as my time here at SAS comes to an end..." that had everyone in such a tizzy.

"Positioning Viya as the future of SAS and sending the message that SAS 9 is going away has got to be the best way to ensure declining revenues."

Agree. But why would they want to do that? That makes no sense.

When he was much younger, I guess 20 years prior to your acquisition meeting, JG pulled a Bobby Knight. 



In the early days, IBM tried to acquire SAS several times. Back then, most of our money came off of mainframes, so it would have been a logical fit.

At one point, it sounded like IBM was ready to pay big money. A meeting was set up.

But when IBM came in, they made a lowball offer. JG was infuriated.

Bobby Knight died two months ago. For you young folks, Coach Knight was famous for winning basketball championships without recruiting violations. He was equally famous for losing his temper — in one game, expressing disagreement with a referee’s call by throwing a chair.

So, JG pulled a Bobby Knight. He picked up a chair, threw it against the wall, and walked out of that IBM meeting.

Walking out was the correct decision. IBM had made a lowball offer, and SAS grew nicely for 30 years thereafter.

My Director at the time said, “To some extent, you want that in your CEO — the ability to throw a chair when necessary.” :-)

“I was at a patent reception in January 2018 (I believe), and something very odd and out of place happened. JG stood up and said something to the effect that "This Viya thing is not selling. Maybe we're ahead of the customer. " And then said something to indicate that it better start selling. It was so out of place. Some speculated that he was taking a public slap at Oliver because apparently, they were having some sort of disagreement.”

I witnessed JG (during an acquisition meeting, with prinicpals of the other company in the room) tell a high-ranking exec that the benefit of the acquisition was “You get to keep your effing job.” And no, he didn’t say “effing.” As such, this comparatively mild slap seems completely in character. If anything, he mellowed in the intervening 15+ years.

Some customers might rewrite their SAS 9 applications to run in Viya, but I think many will rewrite in something else. I've seen an increasing number of SAS/Python conversion jobs on LinkedIn over the past few years. Some customers have wanted to get off of SAS for many years, but the cost has been too great. The cost of the Viya rewrite might be comparable to the exit rewrite, so ...

Positioning Viya as the future of SAS and sending the message that SAS 9 is going away has got to be the best way to ensure declining revenues.

I was at a patent reception in January 2018 (I believe), and something very odd and out of place happened. JG stood up and said something to the effect that "This Viya thing is not selling. Maybe we're ahead of the customer. " And then said something to indicate that it better start selling. It was so out of place. Some speculated that he was taking a public slap at Oliver because apparently, they were having some sort of disagreement (seems like everyone knew about that except me ;)

@4qtw+1q893tGE

I claim no deep expertise in available open source packages, but in view of how the SAS metadata server has been utilized for the past 20 years, I think customers would have to hire astute engineers and piece together many parts from various open source repositories to build the functional provided by the SAS metadata server.

It’s been a few years since I left SAS so I’m not sure what sort of generalized “pseudo metadata” model, SAS has come with for Viya — if any? The Viya micro services atop PostgreSQL provide much of the core functionality also in the V9 metadata server, Just not sure what kind of schema have been defined in Viya that correspond to V9 metadata use cases, therefore enabling an easier migration path for solutions. Alternatively, maybe it’s thought that some of the V9 solutions are EOL anyway and the ones that are not can be re-architected using Viya micro services with some conversion scripts and manual assistance from professional services to move customers forward to Viya.

"Had such been a mandate, It is uncertain that the overall conditions at SAS would be any better today."

I understand the technical challenges you cited. They certainly make sense. Thank you for that clarity.

JG is not a d-mb guy. Which means that I also think he understands the technical challenges associated with making a 9.4 migration to Viya more seamless. So, that begs a few questions:

1. Based on stagnant revenue, it certainly appears appears that more 9.4 sites are deciding to wean off SAS than to navigate a rocky path to Viya. Open sources provided that option. Did JG and his leadership team under estimate customer churn as a result the decision that the road to Viya would be rocky?
2. Or did JG and his leadership over estimate the zeal for Viya? Specifically, believing Viya revenue gains would mask 9.4 revenue losses.
3. Both the above?

Not having a clearer path to Viya(in hindsight) was a gamble. I suppose if I was a billionaire having kids financially set for life and those kids having zero interest in SAS being part of their career, it might be a gamble I would be willing to take.

Not casting fault as when SAS was high, it was one helluva high.

Thanks to those who can provide insight to the above questions.

@4ojg+1q893tGE

The metadata of Server dependencies is probably the greatest quagmire WRT migrating to Viya. Many, if not most of the metadata R&D experts have retired or otherwise left SAS.

The Medata Server was "part of the old SAS train coming into the station" that CAS+Viya Microservices were on purpose designed to leave behind.

Having been intimately involved in many of these technologies over a long R&D career, I can say firsthand that attempting to address varying degrees of compatibility and/or migration Is an arduous and tedious task that would have significantly slowed/frustrated efforts to modernize SAS through the _Viya Architecture_. Had such been a mandate, It is uncertain that the overall conditions at SAS would be any better today.

"As many others have suggested, Viya could be re-architected to run SAS."

Viya does run SAS code using the Compute Server. But there are a few pesky problems, like the Compute Server not being feature complete with SAS 9, and the reliance of parts of SAS 9 upon the Metadata Server. This negatively impacts migrating from SAS 9 to Viya, and seems extremely short-sighted/lacking in planning.

SAS's plan....continue to desperately flog a dead horse, set things up so JG and family can exit gracefully with as much cash as possible, and all the while continue to gaslight it's employees and customers.

I’m ignorant of Viya architecture. But I’ll agree, based on these job search numbers, that the current product is clearly not what the market wants.



As many others have suggested, Viya could be re-architected to run SAS. Parts of it could be salvaged to build fast-performing financial solutions. Each would be multi-year projects, but technically feasible, with reasonable hopes of market success.

It’s hard to understand why SAS is pushing Viya sales before completing either of these architectural changes. No one has answered the OP’s question: “Hopefully SAS has a plan. What is it?”

On that basis, Viya is clearly dead, very dead...and SAS continuing to invest in it really is quite beyond the realms of fiscally responsible corporate behaviour.

SAS9 on the other hand, still has quite some life left in it, albeit most likely maintaining code that was written years ago or helping organizations migrate off it.

Son of a g-n… Folks, we’re supposed to put the job search terms in quotes. Clearly, I’m not smart enough to qualify for any of these jobs :-)


“Thank you for contacting LinkedIn… search and results are behaving as expected. To receive the best results when searching for a job, please be sure to quote the search term...”



Using quotes, SAS is ahead of COBOL. Indeed returns many more jobs than LinkedIn, though the total for Viya includes about 30 jobs at the Viya corporation. My old friend Dice produces the same results with or without quotes.



LinkedIn:
“Viya" 5
“SAS" 748
“COBOL” 249
“Python" 4,436

Indeed:
“Viya" 100
“SAS" 9,475
“COBOL” 842
“Python" 65,000

Dice:
“Viya" 0
“SAS" 340
“COBOL” 322
“Python" 6,556

The LinkedIn job search problem is not restricted to old technologies. In a search for Java, most results don't contain "Java".

I've reported the problem. Perhaps it's an effect of that hot new AI they paid $13B for :-)

LinkedIn job search is broken. In a search for COBOL, most results don't contain "COBOL".

"SAS 5,218 jobs"
SAS as in statistical analysis skills in general, not SAS (Statistical Analysis System) software... Oh mine!