Thread regarding SAS Institute layoffs

Here's a rundown of the top 20 companies as listed by the number of H-1B petitions for initial employment the U.S. approved in fiscal-year 2024, according to NFAP:

1. Amazon. The e-commerce company had the most approved H-1B petitions for initial employment in 2024, with 3,871. That figure was down from more than 4,000 H-1B visas in 2023 and nearly 6,400 in 2022.
2. Cognizant. The information technology services firm had the second most H-1B petitions approved in 2024, tallying 2,837.
3. Infosys. The digital services and consulting company had 2,504 petitions approved in fiscal-year 2024.
4. TCS. Tata Consultancy Services ranked forth, with 1,452.
5. IBM. The technology company nicknamed Big Blue tallied 1,348 petitions.
6. Microsoft. The technology conglomerate saw 1,264 petitions approved.
7. HCL America. The computer programming solutions provider had 1,248 approved H-1B visas.
8. Google. The search engine ranked No. 8, with 1,058 H-1Bs.
9. Capgemini. The information technology company accounted for 1,041 H-1B visas last 2024.
10. Meta Platforms. Formerly known as Facebook, Meta was behind 920 approved petitions.
11. Deloitte. The audit and tax consultancy company had 891 petitions approved.
12. Apple. The iPhone and laptop maker accounted for 864.
13. Intel. The semiconductor company's count came to 851.
14. Accenture. The IT company garnered approval for 833 petitions.
15. LTIMindtree. The global technology consultancy counted 798.
16. Tesla. The electric car maker had 742 petitions approved.
17. Ernst & Young. The accounting firm tallied 741.
18. Goldman Sachs. The investment bank and financial services firm garnered 678.
19. Wipro. The IT services provider's tally came to 609.
20. Walmart. The retailing giant is behind 654 approved H-1B petitions.

Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-h1b-work-visa-tesla-technology/

The H1B visa is a nonimmigrant visa that allows employers to hire foreign professionals

The Truth About H-1B Visas: It's wage theft, pure and simple (https://neuburger.substack.com/p/the-truth-about-h-1b-visas)

"having smarter talent and still building the wrong thing, with the wrong strategy, that customers do not want"

A great description of Viya...

“It is the fundamental limiting factor in Silicon Valley.”

Nah, I'd say the fundamental limiting factors are arrogance and avarice.

The H1B visa is a nonimmigrant visa that allows employers to hire foreign professionals with at least a bachelor's degree to work in specialty occupations.

I can see limiting it to PhDs from well regarded, accredited institutions. Why a bachelor's? Seems like a low bar for specialized occupations.

Or, how about proctored examinations to demonstrate knowledge and skill levels that are weighed against US candidates? Instead, we're asked to trust those hiring corporations and the foreign H1B farm companies. Perhaps trust but verify should be implemented.

having smarter talent and still building the wrong thing, with the wrong strategy, that customers do not want, in the face of massive disruption and alternatives built by even better players ... wouldn't have fixed things regardless of where those players originated.

ramaswamy has an interesting point / question about usamerican parenting and societal emphases, though. in my STEM oriented US high school, we didn't celebrate the prom queen over the nerds, but surely that is an outlier, and who knows if it's changed.

@15e+1wbjSf4E

Perhaps there’s no motivation to significantly improve American stem education from the earliest years?

Instead, is it possible politicians are getting back channel tips on where to buy/sell stocks based on insider information in exchange for policies that allow tech to import cheaper labor controlled by the government visa restrictions?

If the job is just cushy enough, with some probability of eventual US citizenship, then H1B-sponsored employees will likely be much more compliant — especially if losing their job only gives them a few months to find another before they must leave the USA.

“There is a permanent shortage of excellent engineering talent,” Musk wrote on Wednesday. “It is the fundamental limiting factor in Silicon Valley.”

Why "permanent"? If this is a real problem, it is an addressable one that both the US government and industry have had 34+ years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa) to deal with through education and training. This H1B program should have been temporary. Instead, it's seen as a permanent solution and not a correctable problem. That conclusion stems from an intentional lack of monetary investment and an absence of political cooperation.

While SAS has not been overrun with non-citizens, many other corportations have and very much to their detriment according to comments elsewhere on this site and the greater WWW. It appears that H1B recipients, like many other immigrants, bring a culture of corruption, illegality, and incompetency with them. Despite what EM and DT say, H1B is not a path to success for the country but just a way for them to extract wealth before the fall.

The H1B visa is a nonimmigrant visa that allows employers to hire foreign professionals with at least a bachelor's degree to work in specialty occupations. The tech industry has been a strong advocate for increasing the number of H1B visas granted to bring skilled workers to the United States.

Most temporary US visas do not offer a path to US permanent residence. The H1B visa, however, is 'dual intent', which means holders can become eligible to apply for a Green Card once they reach the maximum stay of six years.

While an H1B visa can be used to live and work in the United States, a Green Card allows for permanent resident status and can be renewed every 10 years - it will also enable its holder to pursue US citizenship, which no visa currently offers.

India is the country that receives the most H1B visas, with over 70% of recipients coming from there. The second country with the most H1B visas is China with 10%.
Philippines, Canada, and South Korea each have 1%. Those are the top 5 countries for H1B visas to work in the U.S.

Once someone has a green card and is a permanent resident for at least 5 years they can apply for U.S citizenship.

H1B is really a lottery. It's one way for foreigners to legally become U.S citizens eventually after 6 years or more down the road. In 2024, USCIS selects randomly from those who completed the H-1B registration accurately. Due to demand, USCIS randomly selects 85,000 registrations to be sent to processing. The billionaire tech bros want this number to increase.

America is truly a melting pot with many ethnicities, races, cultures, religions to all become Americans eventually.

I received an excellent STEM education, in US public schools all the way. So I don’t think the educational system is holding anyone back.

But I was unusual. In high school, everyone wanted to be the quarterback or the prom queen. In college, everyone wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer. There weren't many of us techies.

Our educational system has its problems, for sure. But I think this is more of a cultural issue.

Unfortunately there are just not enough American students studying STEM in universities.

The solution to that problem is obvious: first cripple, then dismantle and eliminate the educational system in the United States.

"Unfortunately there are just not enough American students studying STEM in universities."

Correct. US citizen here. I know many kids having financially worthless advanced degrees. And the sad reality is they are so indoctrinated that they expect others to take on their financial responsibilities. A bit off track but a good example of US kids shying away from STEM.

Seems to me the US is no longer a super power. But hey, we have the best educated waiters, waitresses, and bariatas!!! Bragging about that is as ungratifying as a 6-6 team who got to a meaningless bowl game.

@3okq+1wbjSf4E
Actually tech bros want both, offshore to India or China, etc... and also hire more H-1Bs in the USA to replace some American tech workers. Tech bros want to be oligarchs.

India and China have a population of 1.4 Billion people in each country so on the average they produce more engineers than the USA (population about 335 Million). Their cultures place heavy emphasis on education and STEM fields for students than USA. USA will need some recruitment from overseas talents or talents from foreign students studying STEM in the USA. Unfortunately there are just not enough American students studying STEM in universities.

@hfs+1wbjSf4E

tech bros like to lay off the usamericans, not hire H1Bs to begin with, and try to use offshore talent. not necessarily a great strategy, but it happens, and it's clear why they think it's a good plan "on paper"

@2bho+1wbjSf4E Your pre-sales perspective is always valuable.

The original SAS System is a great success, a well-architected system that lasted for 50 years.

Later products show a consistent pattern: under-qualified managers who would not listen to constructive criticism, and failed.

Southpeak failed. Midway Airlines failed. Most vertical products failed.

When the history of SAS is written, Viya will be prominent, because it was a bet-the-company effort. But it was only the latest example of a consistent pattern.

"It seemed like R&D operated in some sort of vacuum, shut away from the real world and blissfully unaware of how awful the stuff was that they were producing."

Yes, blissfully unaware or perhaps aware and stuck in denial. More than once the Big German refused to listen to customers. That was a huge shot across the bow that SAS was not heading down a good path.

For me personally, it was huge motivation to align my professional life on V9, and make a departure plan.

Selling Viya was like selling horse and buggies in a world quickly migrating to the automobile....an increasingly losing battle.

@2hce+1wbjSf4E

Your comment FTW … Witnessed this from inside of Viya development. There were a few of us aware of competitive products and worked overtime adding features to help achieve parity, some of which trickled into core Viya infrastructure and analytics actions.

@2bho+1wbjSf4E

If you are comparing A players in SAS R&D to the best at FAANG or are the top start ups globally, then yes, you are correct. SAS simply cannot provide the compensation or The innovation opportunities/autonomy that these other organizations do.

the number of defects we encountered trying to demo the products indicated R&D testing processes were broken. 2nd, the functionality (or lack thereof) of the products suggested nobody in R&D took any interest in what competing products could do.

So, not only was the idea of Viya misguided, you’re saying that the implementation was of low quality and not fit for advertised or customers’ purpose?

This is because management could never decide upon and stick with decisions about those qualities. They were the arbiters of the functionality and directors of the efforts, both of which were constantly shifting along with the winds. They shut down critical feedback and communication paths that could have guided those efforts, whether from sheer arrogance, impatience, or obstinance. Listening to concerns and feedback while maintaining focus would have been beneficial instead of having a closed ear knows best policy.

How many H-1Bs did SAS actually bring to Cary? I doubt many since SAS has an office in Pune, India that does R&D directly from there already.

As a former SAS employee from pre-sales, the collective view in my part of the business was that there were probably next to know "A players" in R&D based on our scorn for how bad the Viya products were compared to the competition. Two things seemed very apparent. 1st, the number of defects we encountered trying to demo the products indicated R&D testing processes were broken. 2nd, the functionality (or lack thereof) of the products suggested nobody in R&D took any interest in what competing products could do. It seemed like R&D operated in some sort of vacuum, shut away from the real world and blissfully unaware of how awful the stuff was that they were producing.

Sorry, don't mean to denigrate the hard work that some of the posters here did, but just speaking the truth about how the work was perceived by those of us who had to sell it to customers.

@1gml+1wbjSf4E If it was 2000 not all of them were technical. Yes I am dismissing non R&D.

But in any case I think far fewer than 200 A’s.

Also not all of the cloud, micro folks left. The core did but plenty others in the same mold still there.

@1htb+1wbjSf4E

So if 2000 people departed from SAS over the past five years, it’s not unreasonable to think that 200 of them are/were so-called A players. In my experience, roughly half (i.e 100) A players ultimately worked on some part of Viya. That’s not necessarily counting hot young talent that was hired over the years that Viya has evolved.

Many A’s had moved from long-term roles rooted in TK, LASR, analytical services, or the web mid-tier because they were technically skilled to build out the original CAS/VA/VDMML/Compute Server, etc. vision that was branded as “Viya” just before GTM in early 2016. As momentum picked up, cloud deployment and micro services entered center stage with a renewed focus that showcased many younger A players — all (AFAIK) who have left for bigger tech challenges and significantly more compensation.

@1jiq+1wbjSf4E So few things on thelayoff.com are based in reality. Let’s not pick and choose which are ok theories.

A very interesting conversation but it is not part of the reality until SAS is owned by someone other than JG and JS.

JS is comfortably numb in his JMP sandbox and likely dreads any changes. JMP's benefits(healthcare insurance, HCC, gym etc), buildings, utilities, surely are subsidized by big Jim. It is unrealistic to believe JS will have anything that cushy without big Jim. Removing all subsidies and JMP net profit could be negative. Despite having his own sandbox, JS has been a thorn in big Jim's side for many years. That weird relationship makes me think of a movie title: "Failure to Launch"....

JG, if he truly wants out, is likely way more averse to hiring than firing or laying off. Candidates for whatever SAS job postings there might be will be vetted like we have never seen before.

It will be an interesting ride. Adding a significant number of passengers likely does not factor into that.

You honestly wouldn’t want 200 A players. Too many cooks and egos in the kitchen.

So, with imports, 200 new A players would be the cost of 500 or more regular. Doesn’t make economic sense to do anything else.

@nom+1wbjSf4E Our definition of A players are clearly different.

My very rough estimation of things would be

10% A players. Most of those will likely be experienced but I’ve seen a couple youngsters that are in that tier based on pure talent. You can trust them with anything. Can think deeply at high levels, adapt to new things quickly. Understand things both logically and technically allowing architectural type thinking.

• Make everyone around them better.

40% B players. You can trust them with a LOT of the work at a decent pace.

40% C. So so at getting things done and tend to slow the pace down quite a bit. Need a lot of hand holding.

10% D. Shouldn’t be employed. Time su-ks for the A/B folks.

@uvy+1wbjSf4E

More like 200 A-players over the past 5 years. Probably 100 were critical to Viya, the success of which (at some level) was still possible had it been properly curated by these A-players (and others) between then and now.

Viya is like milk that is way past the sell by date. Very few want it and the few who have it do not like the taste.

Sadly, SAS gambled and lost. Winners sell quick.

SAS is not going to pay for 200 "A" players. They're too cheap to pay for all "As".
Heck, they're too cheap to even pay for replacements. SAS headcounts are going down, down, down every year.

The "2000" were not all the best and brightest. Not even close.

From the technical side we have only lost a relatively small number of the A team. Maybe 15-20 people. There aren't that many to begin with.

200 of the right people doing the right thing is massive. The idea that more people is somehow the way to get sh-t done is just misguided. Less is more.

@qyl+1wbjSf4E The total is over 2000, per figures published on the SAS website.

Buyouts and layoffs mostly affect experienced employees. Employees who leave for better jobs are by definition those who can.

So, guesswork on the subtotals, but not on the total or the conclusion.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416449/

@qyl+1wbjSf4E
It's basic math. Replacing 2000 with 200 would not have been enough. It's obvious considering the 2000 lost were mostly highly experienced and A players.

Tech bros like to hire H1Bs to exploit and control them easier than Americans. It's all about their profits. H1Bs will work harder and longer for lesser pay and don't complain (much) because if they do they lose their work visa.
First generation will put up with a lot of cr-p but second generation not so much like the rest of Americans.

@hpa+1wbjSf4E That was a whole lot of guesswork going on there. Easier to say nothing or simply "I doubt 200 replacements would have been enough" versus a concrete "200 replacements would not have been enough".

People need to just acknowledge that they don't know what they don't know.

SAS has lost over 2000 employees in recent years.

Suppose 600 got bought out, 700 laid off, and 800 left for better jobs? Most of those had to be experienced and/or “A” players.

200 replacements would not have been enough.