despite the deletion of discussion threads and comments.
47 replies (most recent on top)
@1hcr My lawyer says I need the SAS policies on termination, layoffs, severance to strengthen my case. But I can't access the SAS policies anymore. If anyone has those, I'm wondering if they can post.
@1hc7 I did not consult a lawyer. I did not believe I had a strong case, and I have some loyalty to the company. So I did not want to take legal action, just wanted a better manager, which I eventually found.
My friend contemplated hiring a lawyer. In my opinion, he had a strong case. I assume SAS held the same opinion, because they quickly offered him a year’s pay to sign an agreement and leave quietly. He took the money and moved on with his life.
The problem with taking legal action against SAS, or any rich person or company, is that they can win by delay. Their lawyers know how to delay; they’ve done it many times. They know that you have your life to live, and you don’t want to spend it fighting SAS.
If you have a strong case, a lawyer may be able to write a simple letter stating the facts, and get a quick settlement. If a legal effort is going to take months or years, I’d quit and move on with my life.
I’m sorry you are having the same experience that we had, and I wish you all the best.
@6bea Did any of you seek legal recourse? The same thing happened to me, and I am meeting with a lawyer, but I'm not sure if others have had positive results of any sort.
@dilf+1tdYzaUy Don’t bother. It is whatever the anonymous imaginations make it out to be. She was the singular host and was laying out the financial state of the company while doing jumping jacks.
They had an exercise session for the online Hackathon a couple of years ago?
That was simply an exercise break for those who chose to remain in the room between the sessions. Loosen the shoulders, move around a little bit. And, it served to advertise some wellness programs for employees. It was not a "co-host" situation. It was also not a random instruction - she is the director of the RFC.
Did anyone answer how a random aerobics instructor gets a gig co-hosting a SAS event? The thread was deleted so I didn't see the answer.
Well actually if that is true, then you were just right. But if that is right, then you were just wrong, which means that you were right.
Oh, I'm always wrong. The common refrain in my life.
Both incorrect.
I’ll save you the trouble. Well connected in R&D but not particularly high up.
My other guess is high up in R&D.
My guess is the Legal Department.
@6rcf+1tdYzaUy Fair enough.
I’ll agree that nobody should put identifiable info here.
But the vagueness goes way beyond that.
There is a lot of stuff on here that is highly unlikely or at least screams that there are multiple sides to every story.
The sides on here are likely to be frequently embellished just based on how angry they are. Anger skews opinions.
"In person I will. Not a chance on an anonymous site where everything is vague and conspiracy sounding with no details or facts to back it up.
Believe it or not people make sh-t up all the time when they are anonymous."
That's one perspective. Another is that anonymity allows people to have their say without fear of reprisal. In either case, I think it's hypocritical to expect others to divulge information that might be used to identify them when you won't.
@6smm+1tdYzaUy “Why don’t you lead with trust?”
In person I will. Not a chance on an anonymous site where everything is vague and conspiracy sounding with no details or facts to back it up.
Believe it or not people make sh-t up all the time when they are anonymous.
@6bea+1tdYzaUy I appreciate the non vague and specific response.
I have a very wide circle of folks in SAS (R&D) and have never seen a PIP. There are many people where I see PIPs as being warranted but that has never been the culture.
Was it recent for you?
“Trumped-up charges” are common when a manager is insecure. When a subordinate suggests better ideas, a strong manager evaluates those ideas. But some insecure managers see ideas as threats, and retaliate.
Unfortunately, some SAS R&D managers are not highly technical. So they feel insecure.
I joined a small project that required eight years to ship production. That manager‘s job was to ship software, but they weren’t competent to ship in a reasonable time.
New to the project, I immediately observed large volumes of duplicate code. I suggested that these be refactored, to improve everyone’s productivity. I made other suggestions. I did everything the manager asked me, but they saw that I thought their performance could be improved.
This resulted in a surprise meeting with HR, an imposition of a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan), based on trumped-up charges of insubordination, and a threat that I could be fired at any time. There was no evidence of insubordination, because I wasn’t; but the manager was not required to provide evidence.
I left.
My PIP did not include an offer of severance. Two friends also got PIPed, and theirs did. The charges were false in both cases, but, again, the manager was not required to present evidence.
One of those friends took the money, and left. The other stayed, and tried to improve the situation. That failed, so eventually they also left.
At SAS, I didn’t have a wide circle of friends. If I can name three instances, you’d better believe this is happening. If you haven’t seen or heard of it, lucky for you.
"Show me evidence"
"Tell me"
Why? What are you going to do with it? Take it up the management chain? To HR? Are you going to call someone to confirm the details? Corner them in their office? I think you're asking a little much, anon.
Instead, why don't you lead with trust? Do you work at SAS? I should be honest with you, the fact that you don't seem to know any of the people I'm talking about, who are overnumerous at SAS, leaves me with more than a little doubt. How long have you worked at SAS? What do you do at SAS? Are you in Marketing, or Sales? That might explain it. You can't be in R&D, or you'd have your own list of useless incompetents.
@6xmc+1tdYzaUy “ That's funny. I was about to say the same thing about you!”
Why? My only comment was about conspiratorial things said here. There is evidence of what I’m responding to right here in this thread. The things said are facts.
Show me evidence of incompetent people running to directors at lunch or n there offices and coming out with promotions.
Tell me an actual “trumped up charge”. Ideally with evidence. Even something not so terribly vague might help the cause.
"you sound like the problem"
That's funny. I was about to say the same thing about you!
“They would corner some director in an office or at lunch and eventually talk themselves into a promotion or "special work assignment" because their managers didn't know what to do with them. “
I’m sure you were in those offices or eavesdropping at lunch to be so well informed on why multiple people got promotions or certain assignments.
“Trumped up charges”
Most of you sound like the problem not the solutions.
A particular system was in the process of being standardized. Everyone talked about the great capabilities, and what it would do. The joke was on me, as I seemed to be the only one out of the loop. So I investigated the claims at the source.
"You're the first person to ask us about this!" the Development team stated. So we setup a meeting to calibrate others on reality. The big talkers were none-too-pleased. My set of trumped up charges were soon to follow. The big talkers were all promoted.
Any large organization contains at least a few incompetent people. What’s unusual about SAS is that such people aren't fired.
So you must compromise with them. And your manager must compromise with their manager — who may also be incompetent. At every level, compromise is required.
Many of these compromises aren't for technical or business reasons. They’re political compromises, for the sake of getting along.
Political compromises make mediocre software. That’s how we got here.
Hey! It stripped my angle brackets! Maybe it likes 'about "insert! problem! here!"' better?
My favorites were the useless incompetents who would talk loudly and continuously, but very passionately, about , and spend their days in meetings being seen, but who were utterly incapable of doing the work, even something as simple as ordering and deploying SAS. They would corner some director in an office or at lunch and eventually talk themselves into a promotion or "special work assignment" because their managers didn't know what to do with them. What else do you do with someone you can't fire, but who refuses to do the work assigned?
With relatively few exceptions, those people are still at SAS, getting paid as much as their more competent peers, who work longer hours and harder. Very sad. Many such cases.
@4njk+1tdYzaUy hit the nail on the head.
I also worked 50 hours a week for years then 60 hours a week for years, then it got to 70 hours a week when my co-workers were working 35 hours a week or even less. I gave my life for SAS but SAS just used me up and demanded more and more and let the slackers get away. The more you know and the more capable you are at SAS and the harder you work then the more they take advantage of you while let others slack off. That's the SAS management way for ya! I lost hope for SAS and left!
We had that. We had “a population of workers that are all in for it, fully invested”. When I worked at SAS, I worked 50 hours per week, sometimes 60 -- and there were many like me.
But there were many more who worked 35 hours a week — and they were paid just as much as we were. They knew a good deal when they saw it, and I don't blame them for that. But we had to compromise the quality of our work to get along with those people.
And we were badly led. They wasted our hard work, with frequent changes in direction -- or, even worse, consistent poor direction. There are some really good managers still at SAS. But they must also compromise -- at their level, and all the way up.
I have no hopes left for what was once a great place to work — except one. I hope that my friends get their VRBP.
Listen, what SAS really needs right now is a population of workers that are all in for it, fully invested, and supporting it every step of the way. People who will give their lives for it, regardless of the outcome. If SAS just had a population of those workers, then things would turn around in a fortnight. SAS will once again return to prominence as the leader in Analytics, and the number one best place to work.
"All they need to do is ask for volunteers for VRBP."
Hoping August will bring another one, like 3 years ago. C'mon HR, let's do this!! Get rid of us old geezers ahead of the IPO.
@3jkn+1tdYzaUy “ To the company man who always replys “just quit then”, go post something on LinkedIn about how great BH is and then eat a bag of di-ks.”
Company man :). Anyone who actually knows me understands that couldn’t be further from the truth. About as independent as they come. As such I’m not a fan of hating something so much that you feel the need to vomit bs and whine constantly on anonymous sites without actually doing something about it. I get that some people have no choice. But the majority do and simply choose to whine versus effect change for themselves.
And you seem a little sensitive. Sensitive like a 10 year old :) I wouldn’t know where to even find such a bag of di-ks. Is that a thing? I don’t speak teenager/du----s.
“All they need to do is ask for volunteers for VRBP …”
I’d be first in line.
To the company man who always replys “just quit then”, go post something on LinkedIn about how great BH is and then eat a bag of di-ks.
All they need to do is ask for volunteers for VRBP. Drop the minimum age some and a whole lot of people would be happy to head off into the sunset.
@2klt+1tdYzaUy “Some folks that deserve to be layoffs are still there and some folks that don't deserve the layoffs are gone. Collateral damage!”
True but it is also true that some folks who deserved to be let go were let go and many folks who don’t deserve to be let go off are still working here..
I think that covers all the possibilities :)
Just like any company of any size that has ever done layoffs.
"What puzzles me is why some folks are spared the axe versus others."
Office politics, connections, buddies with managers, unique skills, etc... and so on are why.
Some folks that deserve to be layoffs are still there and some folks that don't deserve the layoffs are gone. Collateral damage!
SAS won't do massive layoffs like the other big tech companies because SAS is not as big as them and also SAS does not want to have a bad reputation in public perception after proclaiming no layoffs or rare layoffs in the past. For PR, SAS just doesn't want to be known as one of the ruthless companies that do not care and just layoff en masse (a la Tesla style). The Big Guy has pride so be thankful he doesn't do en masse layoffs, and choosing the trickle instead.
Those companies are already public, SAS is not. Layoffs for them is pleasing to shareholders, I guess.
I don't think that's the reason.
Google, Meta, Microsoft, et.al. all did mass layoffs -- yet their customers did not leave, and their stocks keep rising.
There can't be a mass layoff because that blood in the water. It signals that the business is hurting, leaving other customers to lose faith. So the trickle will continue.
What puzzles me is why some folks are spared the axe versus others.
@OP, how about learning to behave in public? Like, I don’t know, maybe leave out swears and insults from your postings so mods can stop deleting them. While you are at it, you might try to learn the difference between a personal insult and criticism, that’ll work too.
You always suggest leaving, like that's easy to do.
It was, a few years ago. But now, the tech job market is tight. The Fed raised interest rates, so many small companies went out of business.
Big companies over-hired, then laid off, and many of those laid-off are still looking for work. The good jobs get 100+ applicants.
The pandemic taught CEOs that remote work was possible. Now tech jobs that would have been in the US have gone overseas.
No one has a right to feel entitled, shift blame, or make false statements. But people have the right to make legitimate complaints, and it’s not always possible to leave.