Who is planning to WFH again that has been coming to the office since June?
20 replies (most recent on top)
Oh dear, I clearly, pushed some buttons. I don't want to complicate issues beyond necessity. People are sick and we have actual tangible vaccines to fight a rapidly mutating virus. The virus is evolving faster than we can keep up, it does not care about politics or law it simply exists to infect humans.
Argue semantics, poke holes, be a curmudgeon all you want, doesn't make the problem go away.
My point is it's a race against time we need to be working together not against each other if we want to get back to the office/back to our normal lives, getting back to business as usual.... which is what I assume people want.
How would you propose we stop the global virus?
The virus is mutating faster than the development, production, and distribution of our current vaccines. What are some economical and reasonable solutions to mitigate the risk of infection?
How do you solve a problem like Maria?
The virus is the enemy, not the vaccines, not the masks, not the doctors, and definitely not the science.
Did you really just say... Just because someone tells you that all scientists agree on something doesn’t mean it’s true..... do we not work in Oil & Gas - a STEM Field? We rely on our engineers, SMEs, and scientists every day to make very important decisions, or maybe not... eeek.
PS.
Yes, Jacobson is currently being used on both sides to argue/defend our public health liberties during the pandemic - so I'd say it's a choice argument for a lot of other people besides me.
Jacobson has been a precedent case in justifying government facemask orders and stay-at-home orders throughout the COVID-19 pandemic.
The federal United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit relied on Jacobson when upholding a Texas regulation halting abortions by including it in its ban on nonessential medical services and surgeries.
I don't know about your TV statement. I myself cut the cord 10 years ago. Have you watched Ted Lasso yet? - I am sure you'll love it, everyone does.
The last post is too lengthy. Please get to the point with less words.
Using Jacobson as a precedent is a very poor legal argument for many reasons. First, it involved the equivalent of a $150 fine. Second, it specifically cites the legislature as having the power to compel vaccines. Third, smallpox was much more dangerous than COVID and modern medicine didn’t exist. Fourth, the smallpox vaccine had existed for over 100 years at the time the case was tried. Fifth, the idea of constitutional scrutiny has evolved dramatically since 1905. In Koramatzu (1944), SCOTUS allowed the government to imprison US citizens of Japanese descent based on the same line of reasoning as Jacobson, to protect “the general safety of the public”. I’m not trying to compare internment camps to vaccines, but merely making the point that the principles of judicial scrutiny have changed. In particular, the 14th scope of the 14th Amendment was dramatically expanded by the Warren Court during the Civil Rights era. Anyone trying to mandate vaccines would certainly cite Jacobson, but that doesn’t mean it’s good law that the courts will uphold, or that the standards of constitutional scrutiny would be met in this particular case. Even in Jacobson, the Court noted that the long history of the use of the smallpox vaccine was a deciding factor.
And quite frankly it is patently false to claim that mRNA has been thoroughly studied. Yes, there have been attempts for decades to develop mRNA therapeutics. None of them were ever FDA approved because none of them ever showed efficacy in trials. The first lipid nanoparticle that was capable of serving as a delivery vehicle for siRNA was approved in just 2018. However, siRNA is made up of only about 2 dozen nucleotides, where mRNA is made up of hundreds or even thousands. None of the earlier LNPs were capable of delivery of the much larger mRNA. The first LNP vehicles capable of delivering mRNA were introduced in…you guessed it…2020. Yes, people have been researching mRNA for decades, but only last year did they actually make public a LNP vehicle capable of successfully delivering therapeutic amounts of mRNA molecules to cells in vivo. It is experimental. It is an entirely new technology that has never been mass tested in vivo in human beings with a functional delivery system, and trials lasted for a matter of a few weeks. No other approved vaccine or therapeutic of any kind using mRNA technology is FDA approved to the best of my knowledge. Only a few siRNA therapeutics exist, but that’s a totally different thing.
Again, I am not anti-vax. I understood the risks and I decided to get it. I am still comfortable with that decision. But let’s not make BS claims about the science, shall we? Most of the same people criticizing others for “listening to the AM radio” are getting their information by “listening to the television”. Total hypocrisy. Just because someone tells you that all scientists agree on something doesn’t mean it’s true. Particularly when any scientist who offers any good faith skepticism is immediately discredited, “fact-checked”, censored and suspended from social media. I’m talking about virologists, mind you, not anti-vax nuts. A Nobel Prize winning virologist was banned from social media just for expressing skepticism. That’s not science. That’s corruption of science for financial gain. Good science needs no censorship, nor can good science exist when opposing views are not allowed. The people who are assuring you that all scientists agree are the same ones that control billions of dollars of funding to other scientists in the form of NIH or other grants or (worse) funding from the dr-g companies themselves. Yes, these vaccines are an amazing breakthrough in science. Not all breakthroughs are suitable for forced distribution to hundreds of millions of people based solely on a few trials that lasted several weeks on the most healthy cohort of society. Having a bit of skepticism about this particular vaccine technology does not necessarily make one anti-vax or anti-science. Not thinking critically, disallowing opposing views, and not questioning everything you are told COULD potentially make you anti-science.
Then the FDA needs to approve them.
Correction: MNRA - was Supposed to me MRNA - pardon the typo. Also, I found this because I was curious.
Are the vaccines really considered experimental?
This is not true – they have all been put through standard safety testing before being rolled out to the public.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-vaccines/corrected-fact-check-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-experimental-and-they-have-not-skipped-trial-stages-idUSL1N2M70MW
I am tired of hearing the regurgitation of what's said on AM radio - it's really getting stale. This is coming from someone who used to listen every day until I realized It's all about ratings, it is entertainment news, not facts - they care about advertising dollars and what drama they can create to keep you coming back for more. Conservative talk radio has morphed into a mix between TMZ and the National Enquirer. Same with news sites like The Blaze and Breitbart filled with clickbait - they are now gossip rags.
Annnyway back to talking about the vaccine -
Maybe people have forgotten but - these "experimental vaccines" as people want to refer to them. I prefer to regard them as vaccines approved for emergency use - see how words can really change the meaning?
MNRA was already being used in cancer research so we already had a head start. Researchers had already made progress in developing vaccines for other types of coronaviruses. They applied lessons learned after the 2003 SARS epidemic and the 2012 MERS outbreak. They also learned a lot from creating a vaccine for Ebola, which isn’t a coronavirus but has taught us more about viruses.
The COVID-19 vaccines followed a 3-phase process. Several stages were required before FDA authorization. Remember they are FDA approved for emergency use.
What has been accomplished in a short amount of time is really incredible. The rapid spread of COVID-19 made developing these vaccines a priority and unlocked billions of dollars in funding to be able to make it happen - we should be so lucky to have the privilege to have access to the vaccines - when many don't.
While regulators have streamlined some steps in the authorization process, the vaccines still meet all of the FDA’s rigorous standards for safety, effectiveness, and manufacturing quality.
More than 150 million people in the United States, including 96% of medical doctors, are now fully vaccinated against COVID-19. These vaccines have been through the most intensive safety monitoring in U.S. history.
The first people who jumped in line first to help push us forward knowing there might be risk associated were brave not stupid - it was a calculated risk to move society forward.
Also... In 1905, the U.S. Supreme Court made an opinion in Jacobson v. Massachusetts. In the midst of a small-pox outbreak, local authorities could mandate vaccination on penalty of a fine for refusal: “Upon the principle of self-defense, of paramount necessity, a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members.”
So there is precedent - and it makes sense.
Link for reference on the authorization processes for the Vaccines.
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained
They need to limit posts longer than 256 words to bullet points only. Although it was well written who has time to read it all.
Why do people assume that just because I don’t want to force people to inject themselves with stuff that makes me a Trump-loving anti-vax insurrectionist snowflake coward?
Democrats used to believe in individual liberties. That was the best thing they had going for them. They have descended quickly into authoritarian propagandists. So yes, they are far from perfect. Both parties are trash, but only one of them wants the government to have complete control over other people’s bodies. In present form, they are not a party I would ever consider supporting. Now many of them are begging the government to violate the Nuremberg Code of 1948 (yes, the same one we wrote to keep people from doing what the Nazis did) by forcing people to subject themselves to an experimental vaccine without informed consent. Yes, these vaccines are experimental from a legal standpoint under the emergency use authorization statute.
I didn’t particularly like Trump. I didn’t protest the election. I’m not an insurrectionist. I’m not anti-vax. I got the vaccine voluntarily months ago. I’m just a normal person with a brain and an ounce of empathy. But I do believe it’s immoral (and also probably illegal once the cases work their way through the courts) to force people to get an experimental vaccine against their will, even if you are offering weekly invasive testing as a punitive alternative.
And, the vaccine makers are totally immune from lawsuits, so even if it ends up ki----g or permanently disabling your child, you can’t sue. They have no liability, and therefore no incentive to be overly cautious. No matter how negligent they are, they will profit with no risk. Any company that makes vaccines mandatory for employees will be subject to lawsuits brought by anyone who suffers permanent adverse effects after being compelled to get it. Those with medical issues are protected by the ADA. Companies should consider that and prepare accordingly. Working from home is a perfectly acceptable alternative for a lot of people, and I applaud that decision.
I personally knew 2 people who have died within 7 days of getting the vaccine. One was a healthy 42 year old male acquaintance who died unexpectedly. No history of health problems of any kind. No COVID. The other was a very close relative. I gave the eulogy at her funeral this past Saturday.
Coincidence? Possibly. But I’m inclined to believe the odds are against it. There are already over 12,000 deaths reported in the CDC’s VAERS database. Sure, the fact checkers are quick to point out that these aren’t “confirmed” vaccine deaths, but there’s no proof that they aren’t related either. They simply haven’t been investigated. This number could be underreported. As far as I know, neither of the two people I know who died were reported to VAERS.
Not surprisingly, the demographic group most reluctant to get the vaccine is the same demographic that was subjected to the Tuskegee Experiments and forced sterilizations thanks to the Buck v Bell SCOTUS decision. Can you blame them for being reluctant? I don’t.
This isn’t the same thing as preventing people from smoking to protect your health. You are asking people to take an unknown risk of long-term adverse effects to protect your health.
And it’s impossible to know the risk of long-term side effects, because the vaccines haven’t even been around long-term. The trials I have read from Pfizer tested only the healthiest subjects (healthy 18-25 year olds) and followed up with the subjects for a median of 68 days. The group most likely to suffer death and permanent side-effects in historical vaccine trials have been children (measles, RSV, and one previous coronavirus vaccine that was deemed unsafe and trashed). And now some people want to mandate that children be given the shots, despite obviously insufficient safety trials specifically in young children.
Before you call people ignorant and dehumanize them by referring to them as “bodies”, perhaps you should humble yourself and admit you don’t know everything before you paint your “enemies” with such a broad brush. Perhaps you should consider that you sound like a shill for big pharma (I’m old enough to remember when Democrats didn’t trust dr-g companies). People have legitimate and well-founded concerns, and you shouldn’t dismiss them so quickly as inhuman enemies of the state.
You are awesome and thank you for astutely pointing out the gaps in current world.
Well if they forced people to come into the office you would not be alone. After this delta variant plays out there should be no excuses for not demanding the workforce in the office at least 3 to 5 days a week. Fire everyone who should come in and doesn’t comply. The company doesn’t need people who are no longer engaged. If you can demonstrate cause like insubordination or dishonesty then no severance is required. Then you just go to the marketplace and replace half of those people. They have fired some excellent people before for cause and didn’t think twice about it.
Dummies get so triggered when you ask them to put a small piece of cloth over their mouth so they don’t spread germs to others. They get their science and facts from Facebook of course.
@1cxv+1cj10XMM
This whole let everyone make their own decision I don’t want the government to shut us down is a false choice.
But just like DUI laws, smoking sections, and f-ing basic traffic rules, we’ve agreed that as a society your individual freedom doesn’t allow you to ki-l other people. Over 600K people in the US are dead and you guys still call it a fake distraction.
I was understanding with the ignorance for a while. But somewhere between being called a snowflake while you guys couldn’t accept the outcome of an election and decided treason was the more patriotic thing to do I stopped caring about your feelings. You may not like to be grouped in with those guys but you picked your team. The same lack of intelligence that keeps you on it is why I don’t trust your opinion on these matters.
Democrats are far from infallible but at least we acknowledge our shortcomings. Your blind allegiance and inability of your party to correct itself is what’s ki----g all of us.
Looking forward to returning to WFH. There is no reason to drive into work when it just means sitting alone in my office all day anyway.
I plan to go. I feel safer at GW5 than inside a grocery store or hotel.
Nice email even though I don’t agree with most of it. Having the freedom to
express our own opinions is what makes the US a great place to live. This aspect needs to be protected at all costs. Thanks for reminding people of the abuse going on in Afghanistan.
So by Vicki making this decision it just shows what not having mandates does. You do not need the govt mandating things when the leaders of corporations, school districts, and all make their own decisions, and that goes all the way down to the individual. That is the whole point that Abbott is trying to make. Everyone needs to be responsible and take care of themselves and businesses. We do not want the government shutting down Oxy, and opening Oxy for us when we have responsible leaders that make those decisions. I have co-workers that are not vaccinated, but I don't hate them. That is their decision and Vicki is addressing that with the policies she is putting in place. So folks let it take it's course within Oxy because it is being addressed.
As well every single conservative I know that voted that way have received the vaccine. I myself went the first chance I got, so it is not all about politics, but the politicians have made it that way to pit us against each other to move their agendas along. The least vaccinated in our population by race is Hispanic and African American, but we can't do anything about that because it would make us racist. I am not a racist and just wish everyone would get the vaccine, but I would not want the government to hold people down and give them shots whether they are white, black, brown, conservative, independent, or liberal. To me that would seem to be authoritarian and racist. Plus, once the FDA approves the vaccine I am thinking many more people will get it. What would we all be saying if it is proved down the road the vaccines cause major health issues. All of us that jumped in line for that first shot might be feeling very stupid. It is a personal choice and let people make it. If Oxy has a policy that you have to have the vaccine to work here then people will have a hard choice.
All this political back and forth has done just what the politicians wanted and that is to separate us all. The ongoing Covid pandemic in many ways lays cover for the politicians, so we don't notice what is actually going on within our country. There are many things going on in this country that no one is paying attention to that will affect us all down the road.
By the way pray for our troops as they are landing in Afghanistan this very minute to protect our embassy and innocent people being wiped out by the Ta----n. That is just one example of the politicians using Covid to get us looking the other way, and it looks like they are doing a pretty good job of it from this boards responses.
They are also negatively impacting the economy and introducing uncertainties into the financial markets.
The whole make your own choice idea is great except when other people’s choices affect me. It’s like saying its a personal choice whether you drive drunk or not.
If my vaccine was all that I needed, I couldn’t give a f___ about those who decided not to get it.
The problem is their ignorant bodies are clogging up the ICUs and are giant Petri dishes, stewing up the next variant. All because they listened to weak leaders who told them what they wanted to hear. The same people claim to be willing to take up arms, and having the blue lines six but are really just full of s—- cowards.
What does goodest mean? Is this post intentionally made to sound stupid and ignorant for laughs? I hope so.
Me