Any ETA on this? Thx
104 replies (most recent on top)
"Correct. But it is still better to offer first to the willing and able, than to first force out those who are not prepared to leave."
Definitely better for employees, but probably not better for SAS.
SAS historically has been very good to employees, with last summer's layoff a notable exception. So it's hard to say what to expect going forward.
@6eth+1tN3dQHB "...It's not always that easy because those who remain may not be able to do the jobs or even have the skills to do the jobs of those that left."
Correct. But it is still better to offer first to the willing and able, than to first force out those who are not prepared to leave.
"redistribute those who want to remain employed among the vacated positions."
It's not always that easy because those who remain may not be able to do the jobs or even have the skills to do the jobs of those that left.
It does NOT make sense to lay off people who want to keep working while at the same time providing no retirement incentive to the people who are willing and able to leave voluntarily.
It DOES makes sense to offer a VRBP first, to see how many people take it. Then, redistribute those who want to remain employed among the vacated positions.
If there are still excess staff at that point, THEN lay off the extras.
And after a long career at SAS, it would still be a bit of a psychological blow to get laid off at the end, versus being offered a “voluntary” retirement package.
@4hup+1tN3dQHB From a selfish perspective that makes sense. The difference is that with layoff it is going to impact people who don’t want it.
And then everyone is going to be on here spewing more BS :)
Not being flippant when I ask this question. My understanding is that the package given to employees who are laid off is very similar to the VRBP. Is that the case or not? Because if the deals are similar and you are close to retirement age anyway, why not simply hope to be laid off?
Going off 2021, crossing my fingers for next Wednesday. Please let me hit the lottery just once in my life.
“Use some of your free time to learn PARAGRAPHING”
Yeah because that is such a useful skill. If you communicate in a way that people understand then who gives a sh-t?
To those employees who don't have enough work to keep busy:
Use some of your free time to learn PARAGRAPHING
I would guess there are not too many actually doing nothing. Some of us are doing enough to get by and not be called out but not win any awards. We are online in Teams but mostly day dreaming. We are waiting for the dream (VRBP) or the likely reality (buyout related layoff) or eventuality (retirement at age). SAS seems interested in the younger generation, it kind of makes sense, but we are still here.
I disagree that people sat around, did nothing and collected a paycheck. If they did, then yes, that is wrong. Folks were under-utilized, though. For many, each day felt like "doing nothing".
I'll give you the dig on the writing. When reflected back, I can see your point.
"Person X is asked, "What do you all day"?"
"Nothing." is the response.
Do they do nothing? No. Do they do what is required? Yes. Does it feel like doing nothing? Yes. "
Bingo!
@3wwu+1tN3dQHB “LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Pointlessly long and ill-conceived. Okay, Professor.”
Funny how you can’t handle when someone else an opinion that differs from your own. It seems you like to fight. What do you hope to win?
“It seems you like to fight. What do you hope to win?”
Let me answer that with an analogy I once heard that is equally appropriate here as in the original context.
Just as an example, let's say person X can bench 200 lbs. But they are restricted to benching 10 lbs. They bench 10lbs repeatedly really fast, but soon see that management doesn't care. They can bench 10lbs 1000x / day, or they can bench 10lbs 50x/day, the bare minimum. So they reduce their output to 10lbs 50x/day, as this is all they are recognized for.
Person X is asked, "What do you all day"?"
"Nothing." is the response.
"Angry commenter." LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Pointlessly long and ill-conceived. Okay, Professor.
It seems you like to fight. What do you hope to win?
@2ber+1tN3dQHB What?????
That analogy was pointlessly long and I’ll conceived.
Again I can quote where people flat out said they do nothing and are content just collecting a paycheck. That wasn’t me interpreting what they said. I called them out and multiple people double downed on it with words as well as upvotes.
But you keep trying to dismiss actual words with talk about weightlifting…
"...Second… Read again. Multiple people have flat out said they don’t do anything just collect paycheck. But us one angry commenters probably just made that up. I would add more quotes proving that but what is the point. You wouldn’t believe it anyway...."
Just as an example, let's say person X can bench 200 lbs. But they are restricted to benching 10 lbs. They bench 10lbs repeatedly really fast, but soon see that management doesn't care. They can bench 10lbs 1000x / day, or they can bench 10lbs 50x/day, the bare minimum. So they reduce their output to 10lbs 50x/day, as this is all they are recognized for.
Person X is asked, "What do you all day"?"
"Nothing." is the response.
Do they do nothing? No. Do they do what is required? Yes. Does it feel like doing nothing? Yes.
“ Sometimes raging overshadows reasoning”
Something many folks on here should be quite familiar with.
“ it's not that they were doing nothing like the angry commenter always seems to think people say”
It’s cute that you call us angry commenter. First off that it is in the singular like all the responses you don’t like could only be one person
Second… Read again. Multiple people have flat out said they don’t do anything just collect paycheck. But us one angry commenters probably just made that up. I would add more quotes proving that but what is the point. You wouldn’t believe it anyway.
it was a long time ago so maybe before that kind of dynamic. it was more so some bit of "we're told to work on xyz [although none of us quite understand it]". it's not that they were doing nothing like the angry commenter always seems to think people say. on the contrary, they could get quite a lot of (ultimately useless) work done. I think at least part of us thought at least a little (guess it was the Kool Aid) that we would still be able to connect the dots between the current customer pains, temporary solutions, and some shiny new stuff that would help better as well as do other things. At that time, we had no idea that connection would never (afaik for now) actually happen.
"met with dismissive statements"
I am not the person whom you asked that question. But...yes. A customer cornered me while I was at their location(for another matter) and gave me an earful about a certain issue(if I share that issue here it would basically dox me). I relayed the customer concerns to my upper management and their response not only was unappreciative of getting feedback from a VERY IMPORTANT customer but also rudely accused me of not being "Onboard" with said initiative. They knew I was neutral on that initiative but raged at me nevertheless. Sometimes raging overshadows reasoning. The quickest way to not get feedback is to discourage feedback.
When you explained this dynamic to others in the company, were met with dismissive statements about how the customer just didn't know what they were doing, didn't know how to use SAS properly, and didn't know what they were missing out on?
very much so. it's why we're "putting you in a box". as an ex employee who tried to work on trying to prevent this situation, and as an actual user, it's all very sad. really makes no sense. but lots of things in lots of books really make no sense.
come to think of it, i would also want VRBP to help pay for my VRBO (either as a renter or as a landlord). great idea, OP
May be what the OP really meant is that he/she wants VRBP to pay for his/her VRBO :-)
I, too, took VRBO as a misspelling of VRBP. But maybe the OP intended it to signify Voluntary Retirement Buy-Out? 😉
"...we customers are still paying you and yes our users are also slowly aging out, but in the meantime, we still expect what we're using (not going to upgrade to weird stuff) to keep working, and working with our updated environments... "
Guessing "what we're using" is V9.
Guessing"not going to upgrade to weird stuff" means zero desire for Viya.
Imagine being a customer of a company who has no plan for you other than letting you continue to pay to for the "privilege" of dying on the vine.
Today is one day closer to a horrible ending for those loyal customers and a horrible ending for a once great company.
Why can't a great book have a better final chapter than THAT?
@1gwz+1tN3dQHB
I'm the author of the passage you refer to that you're trying to reconcile with...
I don't know what role you were in, but you speak of customers being on old versions and discussions focusing on the voicing of complaints. Yes, I experienced that too. My role was presales so I was trying to drive SAS's revenue by selling more licenses.
The major thing I kept hitting was customers wanting to transition to the cloud. The conversation typically went something like this...
"Can we have SAS as a Service, in the Cloud?"
"Oh yes, Mr/Ms Customer, we have a solution for that, it's called SAS Viya, and look at this demo of how cool it is"
"Wow, that looks cool, how much?"
"Well that depends on how much data you are working on, and what CAS actions you'll be doing,"
"ok, here's all the info you've asked for, so how much"
"well, that'll be one squillion dollars for the licenses....and another one squillion for us to install the software for you in the cloud...and then another one squillion per year for us to look after it for you in the cloud...and it's going to take 6 months to install it in the cloud"
"oh, sorry, we don't have 3 squillion dollars, and how can it be in cloud when it takes 6 months to install?"
Seriously. On the few occasions we did manage to con customers into buying SAS Viya, within a few months of actually using it, the complaints were coming thick and fast. Unbelievably resource hungry and slow, and so full of defects that using it was near on impossible.
I've since left SAS, so I don't know how many Viya customers are cancelling, but I can't think of a single customer who was happy with it, so I can't see how SAS can possibly be selling any more of it....the Viya brand is toxic as far as I could tell.
I'm convinced that history will show that Viya was the single biggest reason for SAS's downfall.
“You didn't start the job with the intention of becoming mediocre.”
That line speaks to me. Decades ago, I started with a fine education in software engineering. I worked under several brilliant managers in SAS R&D. My aspiration was to build great software, and SAS looked like a great place to do it.
As time went on, my managers had to compromise with others. I had to compromise with software written by others. Decisions were made, not on technical reasons, nor on what was good for the business, but on a basis of politics.
Many of us were highly skilled, and we tried to build excellent software. But if we argued against any decisions, if we suggested there might be a better solution, people could not understand our arguments. So we were called "argumentative". We were branded as “not team players”. This was exceedingly bad for our careers.
“You can only go for so long until you surrender.”
So we surrendered. We compromised. The result of these compromises was that we produced mediocre software.
Then our friends in Sales had to sell it.
Most of my best managers got tired of this, and left SAS. I fell under mediocre and toxic managers, who blamed me for their own decisions. Eventually, I left too.
I don’t blame anyone for staying and hoping for a VRBP; at the right age, I’d do the same.
But that’s all I would hope for from SAS.
This company will be sold, via IPO or privately. Neither route will benefit employees. The new owners will maximize profits from the declining revenue stream. They'll clean house, throwing babies out with the bathwater.
Plan for this outcome. Take care of your careers and your families. Good luck to all.
I'm trying to reconcile my experience with these statements:
"...we customers are still paying you and yes our users are also slowly aging out, but in the meantime, we still expect what we're using (not going to upgrade to weird stuff) to keep working, and working with our updated environments... "
Will you please expand on the statements "what we're using" and "weird stuff"?
Then there's this passage:
"...I had to deal with toxic local management, had to sell SAS products that the company literally lied about in terms of being fit-for-purpose, found myself constantly having to fight back internally within SAS to do the right thing by it's customers, it became incredibly draining.
It became impossible to make the unrealistic sales targets because the products were cr-p and didn't work properly, were massively overpriced, were functionally uncompetitive..."
Again, trying to reconcile these statements with my experience....Whenever I or one of my peers actually spoke with a customer, which was a fight in and of itself, the customer was using a version of the software that was WAAAAY behind the current release. Meetings started with an agenda on one topic, but quickly became complaint sessions towards a sympathetic ear -- it seemed their issues weren't getting addressed, so meeting with them was wholly unproductive.
Is this what others experienced?
@1kcj+1tN3dQHB I’m an oldie and I partially agree with you.
Saying a 22 year old can’t contribute in as deep a manner as a 55 year old is as off base as saying that a 55 year old is stuck in the past and cannot use modern technology.
It completely depends on the person and their capabilities.
Is experience important? To some small degree.
I’ll take the person who works through issues and is relentless regardless of their age.
Now if you are talking someone who is middle of the road it is a cr-p shoot whether I want the young or old.
Is being up on newest technologies important? To some small degree.
You geezers only know data and proc steps, 22 yos understand how to implement today's technology
“ Why are you on this platform during the work day? You are stealing from the company. Get back to work you hypocrite.”
That is an incredibly old fashioned and simplistic view of the world.
I do my job and then some. It isn’t a nose to the grindstone for precisely the hours between 9 and 5.
Not hypocritical at all.
"having boomers retire, then hiring 22 year old replacements doesn't sound like the best way to do that."
"That" is the continuity as mentioned. How could any 22 year old know even a fraction of the software content developed by someone old enough to be their parent or grandparent. Zero experience and zero exposure with that kind of technology. Foreign and antique. No fault of their own. What is the point? Two words: unrealistic expectations.
History will prove that the SAS rise to greatness was effortless(and fun!) when compared to continuity from today forward. The continuity part is simply a death march. Choke up in tears to type that, as I remner the ride from SAS76 all the way to Version 9.
Using 22 year olds for providing palliative care for a dying company? Anyway you look at it. that is just using and does noone a good service.
Peaceful thoughts for all involved....
Moving forward, anyone from HR kindly sign your posts with [HR]
“What I denigrated people for is collecting a paycheck and benefits while slacking or downright not doing the job”
Why are you on this platform during the work day? You are stealing from the company. Get back to work you hypocrite.
“ You can only go for so long until you surrender. Call you a POS, claim you lack integrity, none of that is true. Don't fall for the superior / inferior guilt tactic. You didn't start the job with the intention of becoming mediocre.”
I never denigrated anyone for being mediocre. There is always going to be mediocrity and that is a valuable thing.
What I denigrated people for is collecting a paycheck and benefits while slacking or downright not doing the job.
“ There are many of us who were just under the arbitrary age requirement for the previous VRBP, even though we had more than enough decades of service”
I do agree with you general thoughts other than the arbitrary part. There is no number and rules they can pick that aren’t arbitrary. Whoever is just under the requirements is always going to feel that way.
It is a no win battle for any company so not worth spending to much time stressing about. Make the rules that seem right…
Post from TheLayoff.com
I agree. What has changed that now mass layoffs would be acceptable to the owner and SAS public image? I think we may still see a slow burn of layoffs or maybe 1 more VRBP to get to the magic number.
@1irq+1tN3dQHB
exactly. doesn't mean any of the weird name calling stuff. it takes actual (bland, yes) work to keep the giant (sinking slowly, albeit) ship afloat and working, still, for now.
we customers are still paying you and yes our users are also slowly aging out, but in the meantime, we still expect what we're using (not going to upgrade to weird stuff) to keep working, and working with our updated environments. before the colossal disruptions including forestry experts/business hobbyist fiascos, continuity was working well. for some reason(s), even though the value of this continuity is still here, the company seems to have lost understanding/ability to keep it going. having boomers retire, then hiring 22 year old replacements doesn't sound like the best way to do that.