Thread regarding SAS Institute layoffs

I think I might’ve made this point before (forgive me if so), but SAS has absolutely no idea about the revenue associated with individual products and solutions due to the fact that products and solutions are priced and sold collectively. Sales is free to allocate the collective fee among the products and solutions in whatever manner they see fit. Because there are often higher incentives associated with solutions, fees often are disproportionately allocated to solutions. While I was at SAS I often proposed common-sense solutions to this “Wild West” fee allocation scheme, but none were accepted.

“Telling others that Fraud, Risk, and JMP are profitable is easy. Knowing for sure that it is profitable requires an inside look at the accounting system as eluded above”

Very true and basically what I’ve been saying. However all the implications that things aren’t profitable are also easy and just as baseless.

Nobody here knows what happened with the Broadcom thing. I do appreciate that you at least labeled it as pure speculation.

"Friends have told me that Fraud, Risk, and JMP are all profitable, and I believe them. But few people have access to those profit numbers, so they’ll never be posted here."

Telling others that Fraud, Risk, and JMP are profitable is easy. Knowing for sure that it is profitable requires an inside look at the accounting system as eluded above. That is not easy and very doubtful that anyone on this site has that capability. Also doubtful that the SAS accounting system has "baked" enough to track and identify all the actual costs associated with a true definition of NET profit for a product. Which means that anyone saying it is profitable, probably does not have the required look at the numbers to support their optimistic assertion. JMP, being a subsidiary, enjoys a "free" ride on rent, utilities, and human capital cost(above and beyond merely just JMP employees). Not that any of that is "wrong", but all of it clouds the waters of identifying net profit. Being the baby of a founder. JMP will always be swaddled and nurtured above and beyond that which a non baby product receives. That is not a statement suggesting anything other than realism.

Pure speculation suggests that if the SAS numbers were good enough to support at sale at a price the founders find likeable, then the Broadcom deal would have materialized.

At some point, SAS will have to face the music of dealing with the loser products - or accept that the sale will have to happen at a lower price to allow the buyer to pull the plug on the loser products.

There is much valid useful information on this site. But it’s difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Friends have told me that Fraud, Risk, and JMP are all profitable, and I believe them. But few people have access to those profit numbers, so they’ll never be posted here.

Unless you work on one of these products, their numbers don’t affect your future. They certainly aren’t making enough money to affect the future of SAS.

Every employee needs to plan for their own future. It’s best to learn as much as you can about the sales and profits of the product you work on, and let that guide your plans.

I don’t claim to know things I don’t know. I’ll happily continue gathering downvotes from folks who speak as if they do.

In a forum like this upvotes don’t make you any more right. Just as downvotes don’t make you wrong. When someone comes on here and says “I do have the actual numbers/data and here is the situation” in a credible fashion then I’ll listen. Whether such a person would get upvotes or downvotes for most of you has to do with whether it fits your cast in stone world views.

Until then I have no intention of following the herd unless I think the herd has a clue at which point I’m in.

“ An independent accounting of JMP finances with GAAP would be very illuminating.”

"I don’t see how that could possibly be more enlightening than just reading all the in the “know” people on thelayoff.com"

You could enlighten us. Or just continue winning down votes! Your call.

“This has been documented extensively on other threads.”

Oh well if has been “documented” on the layoff.com it must be well thought out and based on actual data.

“ An independent accounting of JMP finances with GAAP would be very illuminating.”

I don’t see how that could possibly be more enlightening than just reading all the in the “know” people on thelayoff.com

"I’m sure JMP revenues are growing but I’m not as sure about the “profitable” part."

Any idea what JMP revenue is? And what is the headcount for JMP?

"Open source will deal JMP the same hand of fate it dealt Viya. Viya's outrageous price... made Viya lower hanging fruit to be plucked by open source."

Excellent point. At JMP's low price, it can compete with open source, at least for a while. Should Viya drop its price to compete?

“JMP is profitable, and its revenues are growing.”

I’m sure JMP revenues are growing but I’m not as sure about the “profitable” part. I’ve seen, first-hand, (just part of) how freely JMP throws money around. An independent accounting of JMP finances with GAAP would be very illuminating.

"JMP is profitable, and its revenues are growing."

Open source will deal JMP the same hand of fate it dealt Viya. Viya's outrageous price(compared to JMP), is the largest differentiator, and that made Viya lower hanging fruit to be pluck by open source.

To have avoided the “self-imposed mistake” of Viya, SAS would have needed to be a very differently managed company beginning 15 to 20 years ago. This has been documented extensively on other threads.

“Is a declining revenue stream the biggest carrot SAS has to attract a buyer?”

Unfortunately, yes. That’s why Broadcom was interested. They’ve specialized in enterprise software products, ever since they acquired Computer Associates. CA was really good at acquiring declining revenue streams, and now Broadcom does the same.



The vacant buildings are not a long-term concern. They’re held in a separate company from SAS software. Eventually, commercial real estate in RTP will recover.

JMP takes a lot of heat on this forum. People complain that it uses SAS buildings, although every other product does the same. JMP is profitable, and its revenues are growing. It’s a nice piece in the SAS portfolio, like Fraud or Risk.

A JMP spinoff would indeed help, if the proceeds purchased products that were growing faster than JMP. Otherwise, a spinoff would reduce the value of SAS for a sale or IPO. As things stand, SAS has the option of spinning off JMP, or leaving that decision to a buyer.

“JG… is still a nicer guy than some CEOs”. 



True. Just down the street, Epic Games laid off 16% last year. In RTP, Cisco has done mass layoffs. Most of the FAANGs have. Any other CEO would do the same, because it maximizes short-term profits.

But the SAS CEO has not done a mass layoff -- even though it would improve his numbers in front of his IPO.

Market conditions could delay the IPO: a recession in 2025 might postpone it to 2026. A private sale could stop the IPO, if the price were sweet enough. Otherwise, this IPO is happening.

It’s happening because R&D made a bad mistake. Executive leadership is not blinded by the “Cary bubble”. They’re quite competent with numbers, and quite sensitive to sales numbers. They understand perfectly well that inflation-adjusted revenues have declined for the past ten years.

Recognizing this problem, they tried to solve it. Viya was intended to make up for the decline in V9 revenues. Executive leadership fully understands that it has not.

When the books are written, Viya will indeed be seen as a “self-imposed” mistake. It’s hard to sell to existing customers because it was made incompatible with V9. It’s hard to sell to new customers because it competes against open source.


Several on this forum have suggested that parts of Viya are salvageable. That’s true — but it will take years. In the meantime,

“SAS is actively discouraging new V9 sales.”


Well, what would you do, if you were preparing to IPO? Would you want to IPO with both V9 and Viya declining?

Or would you ask your Sales force to work really hard, and try to make up for R&D’s mistake?

If the Sales force can sell Viya, then SAS can IPO with its old platform declining, but its new one growing. And a small amount of growth is all that’s needed, starting from a low base.

There’s no planned obsolescence; just a bad mistake. And Executive leadership knows that. They know exactly what they are doing. And they’ve given their employees minimal layoffs — and plenty of warning.

Or no one on here actually knows any of the facts and just feed the “if you say it often enough it is fact” rumor mill.

The sky is falling!!!!

Agree. No one plans for obsolescence.
Obsolescence happens naturally due to a lack of proactive management and leadership. JG is the only personality that matters. The rest of the management are just sycophants that tell him what he wants to hear. If they disagree with him they will be out so in a way, can you really blame them?

SAS is a private company so we have to accept the way it runs even though we don't like it. JG is 81. Maybe he is tired of it all already. The only way out is to sell all of it but he needs to lower the price which will be hard for him to accept for now.

JG is eccentric and paternalistic but he is still a nicer guy than some CEOs that would resort to blackmail and extort their shareholders. For that I still have respect for JG even if I don't agree with how SAS is currently being managed.

SAS is a reactive, personality-based culture. Their direction is based on whatever whim the biggest personalities have at the time.

They aren't planning obsolescence - Obsolescence is happening because folks in reactive, personality-based environments are discouraged from thinking ahead and working a coherent strategy.

What incentives does SAS provide to existing V9 sites to keep them renewing? Surely there is an additional message to them besides "adopt Viya"! If not, then

1. the OPs speculation concerning planned obsolescence carries more weight.
2. JMP is the only remaining asset having a future longer than just short term. Thus it should be sold independently of SAS instead of letting it sink with the SAS mother ship.

All well-stated. I think the problem is, executive leadership lives in the Cary bubble, and completely unable to realize the depth of their problem in the market. So, their plan isn't obsolescence, but that is definitely the direction JG and gang are taking SAS.
If they spin off JMP, and invest in the acquisition of higher growth companies in adjacent product categories, I think they have a better chance of getting buyers or IPO market interested. Unless that make some major changes like that, revenue will continue to spiral downwards.
The push to move over to Viya is such a self-imposed problem--I'm thinking business books will be written about it. Had they provided customers a v10 path, as well as done a better job of engineering Viya in the first place, the revenue would be on better footing now. Without a path to upgrade/improve v9, and Viya still a poorly designed system, unable to scale effectively for their core buyers, I don't see this going well.