Thread regarding IBM layoffs

Same thing happened to me. Was a B9 Consultant. When I was hired I was told our unit was going to double our business. A year later after working at two clients, I was on the bench for three month because business was down 25%. Our B10s started doing B9 work. Other B9s with years of seniority were sitting home too. I got 30 days notice and a made up PIP. Luckily I found a job in a week of my notice and was able to work two jobs for almost three weeks.

Since time in band seems to be a key indicator in this threat - can someone tell me what the average time someone should spend in a band? If someone joined IBM at a band 9 level where should they be in 20 years versus joining at a band 6 level in 20 years?

To @9zbe+1nGLXK7e - about time in band: My entire team, with one exception, was band 9, and that is how the project hired/staffed.

Folks might complain a team needs a distributed balance - but if Corp is going to let you hire much - and the product is very complicated - you hire high band.

I was RA'd after 8 years in band 9

My new company/project is the same - everybody is very high band - to get the work done. That's again how some projects at many companies are.

It was also fairly common for folks to not accept promotions past Band 8 - as expectations branch more and more outside of coding. Indeed for similar reasons
(nearly) nobody in my team was interested in STSM.

The fact that skilled developers stop at band 8 is often personal choice.
The fact that skilled developers stop at band 9 is both personal choice AND the paucity of STSM openings.

I'd otherwise agree that people not reasonably progressing through lower bands should be an item of professional (not bot) consideration. And maybe it's still OK to
park at a lower band.

Circling back - small top heavy teams are more than just startup things. Increasingly they solve a need for skilled speed - also proving that 2 of half cost band are only better than one high band in spewing code for something simple.

Thats a lot of the current market. When I was recently RA'd I had no problem finding high band (Systems oriented) openings to interview and apply to.

And yet the “visionary” d-bags running (ruining) the company stay on…

Time in band is definitely a huge factor. If you're still in the same band after say 5 years, then management tends to think that something is amiss (rightly or wrongly). I noticed a lot of leeway in bands 6-8, but once you reach band 9 you're expected to go beyond it pretty quickly. If you look like you've hit the wall, then you become an RA target.

@8jff+1nGLXK7e

Mostly correct, but you left out key details and certainly emphasis.

First, to be clear it's HR in HQ, NOT at division that decides the numbers. Second, as you say, names are HR driven, again from HQ along with division cuts. BUT HR HQ makes the numbers and passes them down after as you correctly say, working with Finance.

Third, you left out a key requisite for selection, and that is Time in Band. If someone has been a B9 for 10 years, it's clear they are not a high flyer or destined for greatness.

And as you say, Legal reviews the process. However, IBM still avoids disclosures for age etc by coming up with layoff programs code names that place employees across the country so these requirements are avoided.

Everybody has a say in who gets cut...EVERYBODY (except the employees, who have no say).

Let me give an example from my time in GTS. Things may be a bit different these days because of the Kyndryl spinoff, but I doubt it.

1. Division not making enough money...financial analysts say cost take-out must occur.
2. Upper executives (letter band) work with financial analysts to determine a take-out target.
3. Initial cut lists are formed by HR. Items considered include things like PBC ratings, medical expense claims (because IBM is self-insured, they fund all the healthcare plans and see all the dollar amounts less HIPPA restricted data), employee work AND home locations. Basically, how good is the employee and what do they cost?
4. Legal reviews the cut lists. IBM made all sorts of tax and other deals over the years (build this plant in x-x and keep locals employed for yyy years)...so some employees can't be cut yet based on where they work. Other employees are "safe" because of other legal issues...they have "protected" status (e.g. severe physical disability) that would make their dismissal legally actionable (in other words, IBM could get sued).
5. Send the cut lists down to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines. On a selected day, start the 30-day clock and inform the chosen employees.
6. If any horse trading is to be done, the 30-day window would be the time to do it. If the employee can make it happen, (s)he needs the assistance of 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines in both his (her) department and the department where they are going. Even then, it may not be possible. It rarely happens. Too many things get in the way. Remember that even at this point, HR and legal still get a say. They often have issues that have nothing to do with the individual in question, but rather what happens with the organization if somebody is moved rather than canned. (For instance, if somebody is moved rather than canned, then often another individual has to take their place on the chopping block.)
7. After the 30-day window closes, the employee turns in their stuff, IBM hands them a final check and closes the door.

I see folks keep saying that managers get told who to cut and when which is fine but who makes that decisions .. managing partner , service line leaders or HR/finance. I am not sure how its possible for HR and finance to give those names as its not based on performance unless they are giving a list on metrics which is then right sized by execs to meet the quote. And if its managing partner or service line leader thats deciding that then he does mostly cut the lowest people in the chain (there may be exceptions to this who it fairly) but mostly AP and below and thats bound to happen in a hierarchical org structure because only partners are constantly get invited to discussion and meetings and events with them so your visibility up there is very low unless you have a managing partner who talks to his people on the ground and does 360 feedback (rarely in IBM). Moreover first line managers in most cases dont want to involve you in email threads, discussions where you can get good visibility at that level (again always exceptions based on tenure and networking over time but for hires with couple of years in IBM.. i dont see that

The bottom line is really simple, and there is no need to overthink what's going on. IBM is losing money on most of its lines of business, and the LOB that ARE making money (mainframes and various software lines) aren't making enough to prop up the rest of the company. Expenses have to be cut. Employee compensation makes up the majority of expenses, so that's what gets reduced.

There is a lot of scripting and automation that happens in the process. There's also a lot of horse trading between managers WHEN POSSIBLE. But the bottom line is that the financial analysts (the accountants) tell the managers (including executives) how much they can spend. The HR and legal departments make sure that everything passes muster with all the court challenges and regulations that have cropped up over the years.

And employees pay the price.

The managers get told who to let go and the HT drones and Legal provide a script on what to say. They can't grow a business so just keep dumping people and move the work to low wage countries. Arvind promised Modi X thousands of new jobs

Same thing happened to me last month. First my manager didn't have a clue what i did for the 3 different divisions or the processes. I was told had nothing to do with my performance. I had multiple managers go to bat for me, one all the way to the top, to be told "no exceptions could be made". I was told when revenue is low they have to cut cost, it's merely a number thing.

@6qgx+1nGLXK7e STFU

replying to @6qgx+1nGLXK7e

Thanks for your response. So based on what you are saying the upline (manager and any skip levels) have zero say on who gets RAed. If its just based on finance and HR - how do they decide who gets RAed ? Do you know what is the high level formula used by finance and HR to generate the names. in the spreadsheet. Also do they generate the spreadsheet and give a quota to senior execs to then filter the spreadhseet and cut people to meet that quota. The reason i am saying this is because based on the kind of people RAed in our group (even people with great performance) - none of the first line managers (partners and above were touched in the multiple rounds even when one partner has zero singins and revenue for 2023) its always only AP and below that were notified (atleast in our groups)

Danggit for OP. I was "fortunate" to be "re-deployed" past Nov/Dec until sacked end of April. (too much competition for the few B9 jobs internally approved - and few for my forte).

Not personal - just the continual shedding to make numbers AND ESPECIALLY MAINTAIN THE DIVIDEND.

I got lucky and got about 6 months - then RA'd for 30 more days. Su-ks to be both of us - but danggit for you as It seems the "re-deployments" are over and it's just a sh-t storm, month to month and quarter to quarter to all remaining.

I had tried to remain on (family health) but in retrospect happy I was "re-deployed" as it's su-king even more for those on 30 days notice (vs "re-deployment")

Replying to @5peo+1nGLXK7e

Not personal. What bull sh-t. Of course its personal. It's personal to the person who is laid off. Can't pay his kids college etc. And yes, you should be pi---d. And no, your manager didn't make the decision. HR hands down the units, the numbers per unit, and the dept.

In short. Finance cuts SG&A. They say who gets what $
HR then delivers by spread sheet. I know!!
Employee is fired

So no @5peo+1nGLXK7e you are so wrong my head is spinning.

Sigh,

I am sorry you got RA'ed. It is not a fun thing to have happen to anyone and suddenly you're thrust into the "need to find my next job" approach.

Let me be blunt: it's not personal. Your manager does not hate you (or love you). He/She is making the best decision possible for him/her to retain his/her job. It's either them or you (and possibly others).

Spend the last few days at IBM backing up your data, copying your contacts, moving documents you will need at one point and start researching your next job.

Good luck!

"When the company doesn't have the cash to pay you, then they gotta get rid of you."

So funny. IBM brings in literally BILLIONS of dollars with a 36% general profit.

It has the cash.

Leadership would simply rather pay itself and their old boys club friends millions in bonuses (no exaggeration) and pursue pet, money losing projects (watson, anyone?) than pay the lower costed Band 9s doing the work. It's that simple.

you were a B9 now you B GONE

To all employees past, present and future, be warned: The IBM management goes by groupthink more than any other company I've ever seen. Many people call it a "big boy frat club" atmosphere, but the reality is that management decisions are made by group thinking and peer pressure more than you know. For example, I've been given 2 PBCs rather than 1's several times over the years because "well your work has been outstanding, but I have to justify your 1s in front of my peers, and I can only give out a few, and I don't know you, so I can't vouch for you...you understand me?" (No need to worry, I got my share of 1s over the years!)

The same thought processes go down for RAs, department transfers and probably everything else. You might think that a department transfer just requires the approval of two first line managers, right? Well in theory that's true, but all the other managers get a say as well..."Manager so-and-so now has one less employee but still has the budget for x employees, how come (s)he gets to hire someone else?" "How does that employee transfer affect the RA count?" "A transfer? Now I gotta deal with HR and legal about how I'm managing the department totals." "I let someone out of our trouble project, how am I gonna deal with everyone else?"

Those are all real questions by the way...coming from all types over the years...first line and second line managers, project managers, and financial analysts. They all get a say for what are seemingly simple personnel issues, and they can make or break your operation. IBM has legions of these people. It's f***ed up on so many levels (literally), and it's been baked into the cake ever since the company was formed.

Thanks for the all the comments. For people thinking that im crying because my number has come do not know how some of these partner are destroying the IBM business . Most people could clearly see that the partner was making the wrong decisions and lying to people above him about what is going on. Anybody who tried to go above him was silently put on pip in the coming performance cycle. team of 5 (i was the last one left) now he is telling the executive that the they need to restructure his role and form new team to improve business performance . So he was given 3 years to make plan, he failed miserably and still gets rid of all people under him and IBM continues to let him continue in the firm by changing his role ( I mean what else is this apart from a big boys frat club) trying to throw everyone under the bus to survive. I have been in IT for many years (outisde of IBM) and never seen this kind of poor decision making, silent treatment and disregard for employees. As to why i didnt leave when i saw people falling around me is because the job market has been rough since last year and i negotiated top dollar with IBM coming in

I worked for IBM and a customer of IBM's and another large I/T vendor prior to that. Unfortunately, there is no true job security anymore, but I can definitely emphasize with the author. I knew what I signed up for when I joined IBM years ago as well as the other larger I/T vendor I worked for. Job security in technology companies was always riskier even back then. You have to perform well, continue to modernize your skills, you do not want to stay in one role too long, you have to see where the market is going and try and work in those areas of the company that develop products or offer services that are hot in those markets.

@1yyx A 30% drop given that IBM has wrapped on system Z is actually a little bit better than normal. IBM has very very good data on the shrink rate per quarter that Z should see. As I said Z is actually a little ahead of its projected shrink rate which is good news for IBM. The real issue is to keep your eye on Power and Storage. Since they are reported together, we only know the 6% shrink rate reported. I suspect storage actually grew given 1st q numbers, and power shrank double digit thus netting a 6% down growth rate. NOTE storage revenue runs at 2 to1 what power revenue runs thus indicating Power may have really gone down the tubes. No matter what, Infrastructure is in for some hard compares going forward as all the product cycles are getting long in the tooth. Just FYI infrastructure will come up approx 1.5 billion lower this year vs last. That 1.5 billion has to be made up plus fight the unexpected revenue head winds, plus add 3-5% in total of revenue growth. That’s a big lift

@1gbd So 15 months into a Z cycle (12 really as these are Q2 results) and revenue is dropping 30%. Not good.

OP is a typical IBMer, and for that matter OP could be a typical employee at many US companies. They believe that while the company may have problems, their own individual situation will turn out all right as long as they work hard, keep their nose to the grindstone and don't make waves. They believe that their status as "an employee" vs "a contractor" will somehow insulate them from the chaos, and they expect protection from the management chain.

IBM has long passed the point where any of those beliefs still hold true. IBM is a company with hundreds of thousands of people, in dozens of business units that executives buy and sell like Monopoly game pieces. They are losing money in many of their LOB, and they are not making enough money in the LOB that are still profitable.

In such a situation, it is the responsibility of the employee to at least recognize and accept the business conditions as they really are. When the company doesn't have the cash to pay you, then they gotta get rid of you. "Workforce reduction notice", indeed.

Here are a couple of comments
@1kvt Decaf should help
@1mss Z16 came out April 2022 Z product cycle has been approx 30 months
@1qoo You have hit the nail on the head When you have transitioned 85%+ of your workforce to consulting and SW development, you have changed the cost structure of your company to be primarily “labor” given that you have transitioned to knowledge based (gig) employees vs skills based employees. Labor is almost exclusively your cost basis, so when you need cost take out due to revenue shortfalls, labor is the only lever you got.

I retired from IBM with over two decades of experience working there. It was a stressful environment to work in as you never knew when your number might be called. That said, I worked for another two decades for other companies who had downturns or went out of business. My advice is learn all you can, do your best, live life conservatively, and build up your network of people in case your number comes up someday.

If the business isn't bringing in enough revenue, then it won't be able to pay all the employees. Somebody's gotta go.

IBM has been disposing of excess personnel for decades. As a Band 9, you already know this. You've see what happens to others in the company when their business unit fell on hard times. You're just upset because your number came up when you thought the company would fire someone else. Ha ha, the joke's on you!

Who cares, ibm apologist! "IBM has adopted this strategy to deal with cost headwinds primarily within consulting due to labor being the leading cost factor within a 160k headcount division." Please provide a shovel and an Armonk address with your "analysis."

Are you saying that it's now called a "workforce reduction notice" ... rather an "RA"?

Z16 was only introduced in Q2 2022. Seems a bit early for there to be a 30% YoY drop in Z revenue. When is Z17 coming out?

IBM has adopted this strategy to deal with cost headwinds primarily within consulting due to labor being the leading cost factor within a 160k headcount division. The primary unanticipated head winds from yesterdays analyst call were currency exchange rates, enterprise consulting deferments, and to a lesser extent interest rates and labor costs. There was also an expected explanation of infrastructure costs having to be addressed due to HW being on the backend of their life cycle offerings. The CFO made no bones about it. They plan to continue to take labor costs out of IBM as customer engagements get deferred and Infrastructure offerings remain subject to their lifecycle offerings. Yesterdays results showed 5% expense takeouts off set by approx 2-4% division growth (Infrastructure being the exception). They expected similar results for the rest of the year

Care to share your BU and Years of experience at IBM?

It’s not you. It’s IBM acting crazy. I was in your shoes awhile back ago. I was shocked, angry, pi---d off and worried. A lot of emotions.
You should take some time to reflect and be selfish. Think of what is best for you. I am not sure when your last day is (or if it already happened) but if you are still there , then think selfish