Or have encountered any of the other tactics Schwab leadership uses to avoid paying severance when letting someone go? Ironic for a company whose motto is "trust is everything...earned over time, lost in an instant" to try to cheat employees out of their severance using crooked methods.
41 replies (most recent on top)
Continuing
Upon rereading, I now appreciate that you may have omitted other items included in the memo. This is advantageous, as you may have already provided too much detail for privacy.
However, please verify whether the toxic comment was consistent with the other memo items. Occasionally, a notation of peer comment is employed to enhance other feedback without standing alone. This does not alter the advice, but it does alter the perspective.
Specific examples in the memo:
• had an "email" from a direct, claiming I was toxic
It is common for there to be three items in a performance improvement plan (PIP), not just one. An email from a coworker accusing you of being toxic is weak. It is imperative to establish that this accusation is an opinion and lacks substantiation. Furthermore, unless it has been escalated to human resources for an investigation, it does not appear to warrant a memo.
Respond promptly to HR. Formally request specific examples of what constitutes toxic behavior and the specific events that led to this complaint. What actions or behaviors were so egregious that resulted in a significant decline in performance from excellent to poor? Ensure that you explicitly request a written response that includes examples and specific coaching recommendations.
You will not be able to successfully argue against a wrongful discharge claim. Therefore, it is crucial to have a comprehensive record of the progression of events. Copy and offsite all your reviews for the past three years. Additionally, retain the memo and other relevant communications. Assume that you will be terminated and seek legal representation from an employment attorney. If your account of the events is accurate, you should consider pursuing legal action.
Good luck.
I have heard more talk of PIPs and warnings this year than in the past at Schwab. I can only guess this is how Ameritrade was. Several of the former Green personnel that I’ve met are terrible terrible people so I don’t doubt it. I loathe most of the Ameritrade people I’ve met.
Aside from your assessment of TDA folks being "terrible terrible" people seeming a bit extreme and hasty...I will say that I think Schwab is really not a great cultural fit for a lot of us coming from TDA.
I have heard more talk of PIPs and warnings this year than in the past at Schwab. I can only guess this is how Ameritrade was. Several of the former Green personnel that I’ve met are terrible terrible people so I don’t doubt it. I loathe most of the Ameritrade people I’ve met.
Yes - sometimes that is all it takes - is one of your coworkers to complain to your manager - especially if you exposed that coworker as being incompetent in their work-either directly or indirectly - look around you - some coworkers keep changing jobs just to make themselves look better and will make those around them look incompetent when the reality is that they are
Specific examples in the memo:
- had an "email" from a direct, claiming I was toxic
That's it. Of course I wasn't able to see any of the details of this purported email.
Literally got top rating and keys award 3 weeks prior and had stellar customer feedback. Never had a discussion or warning about ANYTHING prior to this memo.
Mine was straight up retaliation for reporting misconduct to employee relations. Top performer PIPd a few weeks after they report Director misconduct...yep, sounds like schwab. My employment lawyer was salivating to bring a case.
Wow! And what were some of the outrageous claims in the hastily drawn-up PIP?
Mine was straight up retaliation for reporting misconduct to employee relations. Top performer PIPd a few weeks after they report Director misconduct...yep, sounds like schwab. My employment lawyer was salivating to bring a case.
It's called being "managed out" of your job, so no, they are not trying to help you improve, they are gaslighting you to make you think that they are helping you improve.
I'm not sure if Schwab leadership actually instructs leaders to do this, or if Schwab leadership just attracts the type of people who would be prone to doing this. But it's a poor reflection on the company.
Most of us can handle being laid off, and should expect it no matter where we work, but it shouldn't be executed in a way that confuses and creates false hope in employees. That is dishonest and untrustworthy, and would seem to go against those "Guiding Principles" they like to wave around so much.
Regardless, your efforts to improve will be met with more arguments regarding why you have still not yet improved. Many of us have been through this already to know the deal.
Consider that you would have had to have onboarded a really inadequate employee to begin with, if you cannot succeed in coaching that employee unofficially via 1:1 meeting as the need arises. For e.g., at TDA, this is how it worked, and often times, issues mentioned during 1:1s never made it to performance reviews, because they were already dealt with conversationally.
Schwab coaching memos and PIPs are nothing less than setups for inevitable termination. They want you gone as soon as they take the time to hatch up a coaching memo. You will spend 12-15 hour days trying to please your manager after being placed on a coaching memo, and at the next 1:1, you will still be told that you are not "improving", yet they don't fire you until months later -- so why would they want you to keep working months later if you are so dunce and unable to improve. Think about it. They are using you until budget cut-off.
I advise, as soon as you are placed on a coaching memo, please immediately go job-searching elsewhere. Schwab has already tagged you at this point. Remember, there are other places to work that don't feel as bad as Schwab, you are being called on to do something different. Don't be afraid.
PIP, aka performance improvement plan, is the generic term for formal corrective action. A coaching memo is akin to a verbal warning, it’s filed with HR but you’re still considered to be in good standing with the company. After that, it’s a written warning, which has to be signed by you and makes you ineligible to apply for other Schwab roles and unable to receive any bonus advances for a period of time, which your manager will tell you as part of the warning.
Schwab doesn’t require managers to issue these in order, meaning a manager can go straight to written warning (or termination) depending on the infraction.
This is written by the director who called a the posters on this thread victims, so I’m trying to help you understand how it actually works. Whether you not you think it’s fair is up to you. Managers need a way to hold employees accountable once 1-1 conversations aren’t effective. Yes, there are ineffective employees, some on this board. Don’t take it personally, maybe you’re just not in the right role or company.
Anyone here being put on PIP, do you have to sign any document or coaching memos? Does receiving coaching memos equal to PIP?
In my recent experience, no I didn't have to sign any of the associated documents. The director just Cc'd a bunch of higher-ups as witnesses, even before I could acknowledge or refute any of the listed claims. Also, the coaching memo came a couple months before the final PIP. I would say start job searching as soon as you get the initial coaching memo. You don't want to work at Schwab anyway.
Anyone here being put on PIP, do you have to sign any document or coaching memos? Does receiving coaching memos equal to PIP?
God, you all are insufferable. And very inaccurate to boot but your insufferable nature won’t allow any truth to leak into your self fulfilling echo chamber.
Quite the opposite! We are exposing the truth!
Haha, and it always seems like the same person too sweeping the threads, like the guy who gets caught at the end of the Scooby Doo cartoons
Yea I get the same boomer vibe. And it's like, why is he offended in the first place? He seems to be overdoing it.
Haha, and it always seems like the same person too sweeping the threads, like the guy who gets caught at the end of the Scooby Doo cartoons, "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!" 😂
They have a Thesaurus guy…
Proving their insufferable point. Awesome.
God, you all are insufferable. And very inaccurate to boot but your insufferable nature won’t allow any truth to leak into your self fulfilling echo chamber.
(Here come the: “oh, you’re one of Schwabs HR spies…) yea ok. Moving on…
We know you aren't an HR spy.
They have a thesaurus.
I thought my experience was a one-off, i.e., I just happened to have a bad director. I had no idea that this was common among Schwab leadership. The way I was treated felt very sinister, as if the director enjoyed the process of making me work towards a non-existent goal throughout the hopeless PIP.
Schwab has real issues and they start at the top which is why people at the bottom (15 levels is down) have such a negative experience but can't trace why it feels so bad to work here.
Schwab is the biggest company- not because they created the best product. They don't create anything. They BUY the best products/companies from the best people who create them.
That means once they take what they want, they have to make good on the investment and squeeze as much efficiency out of the workforce as they can.
Leaders are trained, indirectly of course, to protect their jobs by working people to the limit, then "coaching and developing" those people (i.e.. Criticize mercilessly) until that person gets promoted or leaves. Thereby securing that leader's job.
Notice the leaders who have multiple direct reports run ragged and then run out the door- they have peers (fellow leaders) who are fixtures of schwab. They never go anywhere or get called out and they protect each other.
And despite anyone saying that the posts on this site are whining and b.s. Schwab cares enough about it to have teams that review it. In CSS at least.
God, you all are insufferable. And very inaccurate to boot but your insufferable nature won’t allow any truth to leak into your self fulfilling echo chamber.
(Here come the: “oh, you’re one of Schwabs HR spies…) yea ok. Moving on…
Schwab leadership tricks and bullies employees for months before terminating them.
I can't believe someone posted PIPS are victim mentality. Or HR doesn't allow inappropriate plans. What a crock. Everyone here knows some good employee who was lit up out of the blue. And at least one who is absolute ba--s who is still around. What a clown.
Some people can't relate unless they've experienced something themselves.
Did they reset the reaction numbers? They were mostly red as someone kept time with upvotes by downvoting! New here, never saw them reset before.
I can't believe someone posted PIPS are victim mentality. Or HR doesn't allow inappropriate plans. What a crock. Everyone here knows some good employee who was lit up out of the blue. And at least one who is absolute ba--s who is still around.
What a clown.
And, should you try and defend, consider that many PIP employees were hired into the company and had exceeds just before they were on PIP.
Literally my situation here also -- hired in from TDA with nothing but exceeds. Still recovering from burnout as a result of mentally processing this nasty PIP and all of the stone-faced, plain as day gaslighting that came with it. Schwab is very unique in its toxicity, I've been working for a while now and have never experienced anything as horrible as this.
We simply performance managed our under performing employees
Really? How many employees couldn’t be coached outside of a 1:1? Or reassigned?
And how many employees?
See, it doesn’t sound like “victims”. It sounds like bad management.
And, should you try and defend, consider that many PIP employees were hired into the company and had exceeds just before they were on PIP.
It is common for nothing to be said before the coaching memo and for examples to be lacking and vague. Our intent is to make it impossible for you to correct and improve.
That sounds about right. A fraudulent exercise in psychological torture. This needs to be exposed.
Not asked?
Two people on my team were great. Our MD was told to sack them. Out came the PIP with nonsense. Both left and so did the MD. MD was told he may disagree but that management should reflect upper management’s views.
I will tell you that HR doesn’t allow anyone to just whip up a weak warning letter, they need concrete tangible examples, and terminating is almost an act of congress.
Nope.
Examples?
Coaching memos citing failure to complete a task while on sabbatical. The task was never assigned.
Claim that they had a conflict with another team or organization. They were teams or orgs they never dealt with or engaged with.
Citing an issue with Mr Smith in April. Mr Smith left the company in January.
HR reviews for legality. They do not manage completeness, accuracy or even relevance. The one that I laugh at was a peer who didn’t do much to vet their filing. They criticized a report for ticket processing being under the group’s. It really was a made up thing to start with. But I asked how many the employee processed and what the team average was. Crickets. Deer in headlights. We pulled up the records. The bad employee? Processed 30% more.
Weak warning letter? You better believe it. They may follow the templates, but some have been pathetic.
We simply performance managed our under performing employees, and usually the rest of the team appreciated us doing it. Sometimes it resulted in them leaving, on their own or us terminating, but sometimes they actually improved. I will tell you that HR doesn’t allow anyone to just whip up a weak warning letter, they need concrete tangible examples, and terminating is almost an act of congress. So, maybe some of you aren’t performing well and trying to blame your employer for calling you out on it?
Here's my take on this. Let's say you have an employee who is actually doing a few things wrong and needs to improve their performance. In my opinion, you should be able to correct such an employee verbally during their next routinely scheduled 1:1. Just a simple discussion is needed to make an employee aware of one or more of their shortcomings. You might need to follow-up with a couple more mentions regarding the issues during follow-up 1:1s, but that should be all that is necessary to start seeing significant efforts toward improvement.
Very rarely you will get an employee who doesn't respond to verbal 1:1 discussions about their problems, but if you do, then that employee needs to be terminated shortly after. You the manager, might be worried about legal consequences, but if the employee was that bad, then you should have some concrete, documented evidence to present in that scenario.
This means that a PIP is never necessary, unless being intentionally utilized for deceptive, exploitative means. And the severance-dodging is nothing less than theft and abuse on the part of Schwab leadership.
Regarding your mention of HR not accepting any weak cases, you'd better believe that the PIPs drafted are full of itemized lies. Like the first commenter stated here, these PIPs often consist of examples of unfair scapegoating for failures of the manager, as well as other types of reality twists of real incidents meant to unfairly build a case against the employee.
Please also consider, that an employee who has legitimately failed a PIP that was outlined by a manager in good faith, will not be posting here with the level of rage and feelings of injustice that you see here. Even if they are upset, they will for the most part react in accordance with the fact that it is in fact justified.
Yes, and this abuse on the part of Schwab towards its employees needs to be exposed publicly. I'm really all for it.
I understand that layoffs must happen sometimes, as efficiencies are discovered. That's not the problem. But the sadistic gaslighting via these deceptive PIPs is inexcusable and demoralizing, and in many cases, also unnecessary from a budgeting standpoint.
Instead of a false PIP that has employees chasing their tail, why not tell the employee from the start that you think their job is at risk, and encourage them to start looking immediately. Develop a plan so that employees are laid off earlier and get their severance, rather than a dragged out PIP full of torture. This alternative (which should be the default standard) literally has an identical impact on the bottom line. This is also mutually beneficial because the employee gets to fully start their job search earlier, and the company loses no money from a budget standpoint.
It's also mutually beneficial to employees expecting to retire soon -- yes the layoff will be earlier, but at least there's adequate warning, and you are not denying severance.
The false PIP Schwab utilizes so often is not only top-tier psychological abuse, but it also prevents hard workers who have given so much to Schwab from being able to ask for recommendations/references from their managers in order to continue their livelihood elsewhere. It's wrong on so many levels.
Seems like most on this thread are the “victims” and the stories might not be factual. I was a director at Schwab for over 8 years and not once was ever instructed to fabricate to get rid of someone.
How ridiculous.
We simply performance managed our under performing employees, and usually the rest of the team appreciated us doing it. Sometimes it resulted in them leaving, on their own or us terminating, but sometimes they actually improved.
I will tell you that HR doesn’t allow anyone to just whip up a weak warning letter, they need concrete tangible examples, and terminating is almost an act of congress. So, maybe some of you aren’t performing well and trying to blame your employer for calling you out on it?
There are way to many of these stories now for this to be a one off situation .This is a ridiculously unethical way to treat employees. To lie about an employee’s performance, all falsely documented on their review ,to set them up. This leadership is why morale is the lowest it’s been in 20 + years. No trust. (NO mgr ,dir ,vp , or svp would ever be allowed to do this w/out approval, or instruction from the very top) .
OP, I am in the same situation as well. Received coaching memos saying I didn't perform up to expectations but they couldn’t explain how and where I didn’t meet. Does Schwab have to pay severance if it is performance issue?
Hi, OP back again.
Please heed everything the PL commenting right before my latest comment stated, that person is right on the mark. I am also so thankful for this person's advice, as it is helpful and consoling to me as well.
And regarding your last question, that's the whole point behind the fabricated PIP...so that you are considered fired by cause and are ineligible for severance.
It's a new year, and I am hopeful for the future. I think it's wise to consider that the termination we both endured in this horrible manner was a blessing.
Hoping to hear others stories as well.
Not OP. PL.
Failing to improve, you quit or are terminated for cause. We offer the chance to quit instead of being fired. There’s no severance.
Under no circumstance quit. Do not sign any paperwork.
Immediately write a letter for your employee file. Document what you can. Collect everything you can and keep a copy at home. Emails, phone call notes and recordings, calendar entries, names of peers and contact info, the coaching memo and so on.
The letter should note dates, discussions, provided examples or lack, any pre-memo notifications and the like. It is common for nothing to be said before the coaching memo and for examples to be lacking and vague. Our intent is to make it impossible for you to correct and improve.
The HR letter is not a debate or attempt to change the coaching memo. You can't. It is not written to your manager. In fact don't send them a copy. Just ask for the letter to be added to your HR file. There is a link on the HR jump word. Don't be emotional or play lawyer. If you are over 40 or in another protected class you may want to consider how that helps.
The letter is showing that you informed the company they weren't giving you an opportunity to improve. A good line would be that the coaching says you didn't do A and you did A on the 2nd, 5th and 8th. Noting that you have consistently done A, if true, is a nice add. Same for vague items. Quote the memo and say how it is vague and on what dates you spoke with your manager for clarification.
HR will ask for an interview or just file the letter.
If interviewed, clearly state your intention to stay and that there are no improvement specifics. HR is not there to help. They listen and document anything you say that can help the company. Do the same for you. Be brief. You aren't asking for an investigation into protected status or retaliation if it comes up, but don’t mention it first.
Record the call with HR. Record the call with HR. Record all meetings going forward.
If you have strong facts, you can prolong this. Your goal is to buy time to find another job and prepare a case after termination. Texas leans corporate. Being prepared may position you for a settlement. There are also quarterly layoffs and likely a big one this year. You want to get into that pool.
Don’t worry about being fired. They can’t disclose it, and it’s constructive discharge. Your resume and interviews don’t need to mention it.
Breathe. Don't take this personally. Don't let them make you doubt. Good luck.
OP, I am in the same situation as well. Received coaching memos saying I didn't perform up to expectations but they couldn’t explain how and where I didn’t meet. Does Schwab have to pay severance if it is performance issue?
Got it about the audio, thanks.
Glad you got a lawyer involved in your case. I only reported the Director to HR however after my termination. I heard from a coworker that this Director has been reported by at least four other employees before me, but nothing seems to happen, since she's still there. Makes sense though, if this is in fact the Schwab way.
They likely meant recording audio, not task logs.
Agree with their list. When confronted about disagreeing emails they dismissed the concerns saying it didn’t matter. All I can say is that may have changed when a lawyer called.
Thank you, OP here...definitely experienced 1 through 5 on your first list. For number 5, project was delayed instead of canceled, but same situation. For number 6, I actually continued to get many SendWords, but my manager ignored them (previously she used to eagerly respond to, and forward each one to higher-ups).
On your second list, number 3 (gaslighting) is huge. I experienced so many various forms of gaslighting during the PIP. As for number 4 on the second list, I take honest stock of myself all the time and always hold myself accountable. However, even so, since their agenda is to force you out (vs. "improvement"), it seems like you really don't stand a chance even if you give it your all to try to meet the contrived conditions of the PIP. They're working against you in a hidden fashion, all while verbally trying to convince you during 1:1s that you're not "improving".
Also your tips about recording everything are great, however, I would add watch out for shared documents. I started recording every new project/assignment and it's completion status on a shared spreadsheet, and during my last week there, my manager deleted all the task rows that were completed, so that only all the in-progress rows were left. Totally no reason to delete the completed rows, since I even color-highlighted them for easy differentiation. If called out, I'm sure she would say that she was just cleaning it up, but my spidey sense tells me she was showing it to the MD during a 1:1, and didn't want the MD to see how many tasks I had already completed. Definitely maintain your own copy of shared docs.
Thanks for your reply.