Thread regarding Ford layoffs

The Elephant in The Room

There's a big problem in the auto industry that isn't talked about enough...

The residual values of their cars are very important to the huge financing departments of auto OEMs... For example, GM and Ford have financing debts of $94 billion and $118 billion, respectively...

Due to a lack of supply and near-zero interest rates, used car prices and residual values have been artificially pushed up over the past year or two. But now that production is back to normal and interest rates are going up, used car prices are starting to go up again...

If OEMs can't resell cars for close to what they thought they were worth when they financed them, their financing divisions will lose a lot of money... Even though the market is used to the fact that car prices go up and down, the long-term risk of residual values is way understated. Looking beyond a recession, electric vehicles pose a major long-term threat to residual values...

99% of the financing division's risk is tied to vehicles with an internal combustion engine (ICE). Over the next ten years, several governments, including California (the largest auto market in the US), Europe, and China, plan to stop selling gas-powered cars.

Whether you agree with these policies or not, this will definitely hurt ICE residual values in the future. From the point of view of natural consumer demand, EVs will hurt ICE residual values because:

  1. a much lower rate of wear and tear
  2. Better service to customers
  3. Maintenance costs are 40–50% less

Hertz tested more than 20,000 electric vehicles and confirmed these results on their Q2 earnings call. ICE residual values have continued to drop because EV adoption has been low in the past. But as EVs have gotten cheaper and charging stations have gotten better, the number of EVs on the road has grown by a huge amount...

Also, once people buy an EV, the vast majority don't go back to ICE. Long-term demand for ICE cars will drop because:

  1. EVs are becoming more popular because people want them.
  2. It's against the law to sell ICE cars.
  3. Electric vehicles are becoming more affordable.

Each of these will cause ICE residual values to go down: People know that the auto industry is very cyclical and that there have been many bankruptcies in the past. But the world we live in now is very different and brings new problems. When interest rates go up and short-term and long-term residual values go down, bad things happen...

Given that they make parts for these items, legacy OEMs could be in a lot of trouble...

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| 1481 views | | 8 replies (last November 18, 2022) | Reply
Post ID: @OP+1jI1222w

8 replies (most recent on top)

It's not like there are mom n pop shops that can rebuild your Li-ion battery pack for a reasonable price. You have to go to the OEM, which will charge $20k+. You easily keep an ICE vehicle going for 300k-400k. Engines & transmissions can be affordably rebuilt.

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Post ID: @3ozh+1jI1222w

Lots of vehicles repossessed during a deep recession with lots of jobs lost by working classes. However, this economy seems different. White collar layoffs starting, yet shortage of blue collar employees.

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Post ID: @1wwn+1jI1222w

It was a huge problem in 2008-2009. One of their key projects driven by Ford Credit was better estimates for residual values.

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Post ID: @1jbd+1jI1222w

I agree 100%. It always irritated me how much FoMoCo seemed to not care about the residual value and the impact it would have on the resale market. One LL5 was very honest with me and said that their biggest concern was selling new vehicles. I suppose I understand that. But the situations described below are really going to put the squeeze on lower income people. Buyer number 3 (as described below) isn't going to find an electric vehicle for less than the price to buy/install a replacement ev battery... And the prices for the remaining ICE vehicles will be doubly inflated because supply will be lower and demand will be higher.

And another thing! (Haha) I remember Car Car commenting once during a town hall that the elimination of 'cars' from our portfolio would eliminate the lower entry cost to Ford - but that this problem could be resolved by dealers being more involved in the resale market. Which just means (in my opinion) that used car prices are just going to go up. People will end up buying used cars for the price of the new cars that Ford 'used to sell'. Again, hurting the customers at the lower end of the financial spectrum.

Bravo, Ford....

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Post ID: @cik+1jI1222w

Read about used chevy bolt needing new battery here….

https://ehlinelaw.com/blog/girls-electric-car-new-battery-more-expensive

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Post ID: @lvv+1jI1222w

What a pile of excr-ment.

Tell your story to the young girl that bought a used Chevy Bolt. Shortly after buying it the battery pack died. $20,000 for a new one.

Go ahead and roll the dice with a used EV!

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Post ID: @nyr+1jI1222w
  1. Production is NOT back to normal and will not be for quite some time, perhaps a year or more if we are lucky.
  1. ICE residual values will INCREASE because people want them, and as automakers reduce the supply of ICE vehicles the values will continue to escalate.
  1. EV's all have huge battery problems, especially at the end of life. ALL of them, including Tesla. Good luck finding a replacement battery at all for some models, like this Ford Focus battery. It would cost $24,000 if Ford even had them available, which they don't and there are no third-parties rebuilding them.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/florida-family-electric-car-problem-replacement-battery-costs-more-vehicle

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Post ID: @eow+1jI1222w

There is one lingering issue with residual value. And that's the residual value for EVs. While the motors are unlikely to have significant service issues, all companies have had long-term issues with battery life (not systemic, but in some examples).

There isn't enough data yet for fleets if vehicles to understand whether a battery will last 200k or 400k.

Most cars go through 3 buyers. Most EVs are on the first or 2nd buyer right now. When we have a large population on the 3rd buyer and they start seeing 5-10k battery replacement costs, they will junk their cars, and the resale value from the 2nd buyer to the 3rd buyer will plummet.

We could find ourselves in an interesting world where buyers #1 and #2 prefer EVs (ICE cars are discounted), but when you get to #3 buyiers, they prefer ICE, and they sell at a premium.

I'm not saying this will definitely happen, but it is something to keep an eye on.

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Post ID: @mcr+1jI1222w

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