Many people keep commenting how the company is failing and get out while you can. Do people really not have any hope for the company? Can it be saved? Or is it really a dying dinosaur?
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The story helps fill in the holes and maybe sheds more details on events of the time.
@484+1jgxdnf0h “If people are interested, I can provide more”
Please do. I worked on the periphery of Viya, and have ever since wanted to understand the rationale behind the decisions.
It’s a perfectly logical decision not to compete against platforms from Oracle, Google, AWS, IBM, et.al.
I wonder why we could not add our usual value on top of their platforms.
SAS was simply not investing in the scale of Development it would take to successfully build a modern cloud or database platform at the scale of our largest competitors
Strict compatibility between the two was not an initial mandate, yet intermittently became a tenuous subject
management seemed to vacillate constantly
Yeah, could never make up their minds for what but always trying to do whatever it was as cheaply and quickly as possible. The former causing wasteful churn while the latter being short sighted.
I’m a former Viya core team member and to my recollection OS had JG’s blessing to build out CAS as the primary Viya engine in support of the “new fast train” that would replace the “older SAS V9 train”. Strict compatibility between the two was not an initial mandate, yet intermittently became a tenuous subject as Viya Development continued. The old adage “hindsight is always 20/20” certainly applies here.
An important premise for understanding the dynamic you are describing is that internal discussions regarding Viya design date back to 2010 - 2012. CAS, Viya’s core engine, is the evolution of earlier efforts to advance traditional SAS technology going back to 2005 (beginning with HPA/In-Database, and finally LASR).
Let’s consider the confluence of macro and micro circumstances occurring around 2010. This will need to be a multi post comment so here is part one:
Part 1
The world-wide volume of data was continuing to grow exponentially, mirroring the explosion of Internet based technologies, public cloud computing and eventually IoT.
Yet, at that point, was there an identifiable, singular analytics and data management technology that everyone could agree dominated? I think we can agree, the answer was NO — incumbent vendors like SAS were scrambling to enhance their core products (developed for earlier computing, paradigms) in time to capture new market share. New players, led by hyper-scalar cloud vendors were inventing technologies and creating products native to Internet and cloud environments.
When compared with 2015-2025, Open Source management and analytics was mostly nascent in 2000-2010. However, in this timeframe Map Reduce and Hadoop did come into being and continued on a steep ascent while SAS rushed to integrate, as we had been doing with the in-database effort, for storage appliances and of course earlier classic data sources on mainframe, mini, and PC computers — I.e. the computing paradigms MVA was built for.
Many CAS core team members started their SAS R&D careers designing and building key MVA components. I think it’s fair to say we understood an ingrained ethos, enshrined by JG himself — SAS builds platform components ultimately to deliver data management and subsequently analytics on the resulting prepared data. SAS was simply not investing in the scale of Development it would take to successfully build a modern cloud or database platform at the scale of our largest competitors like Oracle, Google, AWS, IBM, etc., and ultimately of course, open source software.
Systems-level developers serve SAS’ primary mission which is analytics. Our job was to essentially create abstraction layers to interface with underlying operating systems and network communication technologies while providing common runtime services like memory management, multithreading and SAS-native data formats, etc. to enable our analytics as fast as possible.
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If people are interested, I can provide more in subsequent installments.
“ I agree that the core personnel were some of our best and brightest. It may be that they were sufficiently dedicated, but insufficient in number. They worked hard, but perhaps a project like Viya needed more of them.”
IMHO the core failure of Viya has been the absence of a coherent strategy regarding its adoption by current SAS users. Replace SAS9? Augment it? SAS management seemed to vacillate constantly, to the point that it seemed they hoped SAS users would figure it out for them. Really, considering how staid the SAS user base has proven to be, this was a vain hope. Settled SAS users hunkered down with V9 and appear to be continuing to do so. Less settled (and younger) users found non-SAS alternatives.
Without knowing the details of the long creation of Viya, I would just add one suggestion. @3x3+1jgxdnf0h and I agree that the core personnel were some of our best and brightest. It may be that they were sufficiently dedicated, but insufficient in number. They worked hard, but perhaps a project like Viya needed more of them.
I still classify Viya as part of a pattern of failures, including Version 7 and most of the Vertical products. SAS is SLOW to ship software, and often delivers products the market does not want, and this has been true for decades.
During my time there, many of us thought that we had poor management. But when we suggested that there might be better paths, we got punished. Managers would cut our raises and bonuses, put us on bad projects in hopes we would leave, or PIP us.
All these things were done to me and my friends. But we were right. While the amount of data in the world grew by a factor of 1000, those managers managed to shrink the company. They really were bad at their jobs.
This brings no satisfaction, because we knew we were right. It only brings sadness, for the lost opportunities, for what might have been.
The SAS CEO has announced the hiring of “outside help” to “cut costs”. That surely means layoffs. I hope all my friends who remain can stay safe, and those who need packages can get them.
@3x3+1jgxdnf0h, we agree. I always learn from your comments.
Friends worked on Viya, and they were indeed some of our best and brightest. Some of them worked 60-hour weeks. They were certainly not complacent.
And yet, the market moved faster than SAS. I think this is due to a complacent culture, of which Viya is only the most recent example.
Consider all our efforts to enter Vertical Markets in the early 2000s: Energy, Retail, etc. Few of those efforts succeeded.
Remember the disaster that was Version 7, back in the ‘90s. Years of development produced software that was so bad, we never charged for it.
SAS did state-of-the-art work in the ‘70s and ‘80s. But in the ‘90s, we began failing to innovate, and failing to ship in a competitive timeframe.
We could tolerate failures, as long as our legacy revenue stream had little competition. Then Open Source appeared — after we had become unable to create new revenue streams.
That’s why I answer the OP’s question: Yes, this is really the end — because SAS is no longer able to ship competitive products.
That’s the effect. The cause was a cultural change thirty years ago.
OS built what JG would allow him to build: a data management and analytics framework based on existing SAS multi-threaded platform infrastructure
Which is why it was originally called CDMAS, Central Data Management and Analytics Server, because Nancy was involved in the specification and design of the initial system.
Regarding Open Source in 2013
always beginning = only beginning
The CAS portion of Viya, initiated in Oct 2013, absolutely did not start off slowly or with any complacency. Some of the best and brightest systems-level developers in the history of SAS worked long and hard on it. Many of these folks went back to the earliest days of MVA and eventually TK internals development — precisely why they were enlisted by OS.
In 2013 , open source analytics and data management frameworks from which a distributed, cloud, friendly platform, were nascent at best.
All of this has been covered extensively and earlier threads going back two years.
OS built what JG would allow him to build: a data management and analytics framework based on existing SAS multi-threaded platform infrastructure, the SAS homegrown Threaded Kernel (TK) and coded in C using an almost exclusive set of internally created libraries, owing to SAS’s portable platform heritage. The plan was to evolve LASR into a flexible framework surfacing APIs that classical SAS PROC writers could create CAS actions for and that open source languages could invoke on the client side.
Most of the now dominate open source frameworks, including Apace Spark and Kafka we’re always beginning to gain significant tailwinds. Python and R were then at best client side languages, mostly targeted at single user analytics, graphics, and report generation, etc., not the industrial strength, scalable, and cloud targeted Server side framework that CAS was designed to be.
There has been considerable bi--hing and moaning about Viya, while seemingly justified in 202, was a design based on reasonably sound decisions in 2012, when much of the companies’s brain trust, including key representatives from some of the solutions groups, agreed that we needed a “Central Analytics Server” (later named Cloud Analytic Services).
Everything else regarding talent lost to VRBO and top engineers, leaving for better compensation and innovation opportunities is true. It’s quite possible had this loss not occurred, at least not to the scale it did, that Viya could be better positioned and therefore more successful. We will never know. My personal guess is that only marginally so given rapid changes in market dynamics, the overwhelming growth of open source and now AI.
Sadly, I have only one "+1" to give. I feel like I could have written this.
When the business school case studies are written, they’ll blame the decline of SAS on its complacent culture.
For its first couple of decades, SAS was a place where you could build great software. SAS was founded by academics working close to the state of the art. They innovated a new product, better than SPSS and others. After defeating those early competitors, SAS owned most of the market.
Then the Peter Principle took hold, and the Dunning-Kruger Effect, and all the other problems of a complacent corporate culture. Many R&D managers actively discouraged innovation.
Some had weak technical skills, so were insecure, and viewed new ideas as threats to their authority. If you suggested a better idea than theirs, they’d cut your raise and bonus, or push you out of their department.
Other managers had simply learned that, at SAS, their most important job was to “get along”. So they blindly obeyed directives from above, and compromised with their peers. Even when they were willing to accept change, they discouraged it when others were unwilling.
This culture stifled innovation, but SAS was still profitable — as long as it faced no serious competition. Then Open Source appeared. The race was on, and SAS had not had to race in many years.
Viya is only the most recent symptom. How long did it take? Eight years? Ten? Was Viya more difficult than the Apollo Moon Shot? Was it more difficult than the Manhattan Project?
No. No, it was not. SAS is just SLOW. Its complacent culture is unable to produce innovative software in a competitive timeframe.
In recent years, this culture has not improved; rather the opposite. Hundreds of the most experienced employees have been paid to retire early. Hundreds more left during the Brain Drain of 2020-21, when pandemic stimulus made it easy to find greener pastures.
There are good managers and smart people still working hard at SAS. But on the whole, do you see any sign that the SAS culture is improving? No? That’s why this is the end.
Or you are.
He’s just sad, like the rest of us, but he lashes out like an unruly child. It’s understandable. We’re all children at heart. I’m guessing, old enough that he’s reverting.
We can’t all hug him or lay healing hands on him but maybe we can all collectively pray for him. We can pray for peace and comfort in his soul and maybe he’ll break down and have a good cry with us. Let’s do that.
Lord, hear our prayer.
@2g5+1jgxdnf0h Since we are drawing ridiculous parallels there are a lot of similarities with chicken little also.
“On the Titanic, they didn't have all this bickering 😂!”
You mean, aside from the people who (before the sinking became obvious) insisted they didn’t want to leave the nice big ship for the little lifeboats? On the contrary, we might have several direct parallels.
On the Titanic, they didn't have all this bickering 😂!
“And, see? There he is, right on time.”
And there you are, right on time. Whatever tf that means.
“You seem to be missing the irony of your conclusion.”
Or you are.
“ And, see? There he is, right on time.”
See what I mean? You take anyone with different opinion as proof of “something”.
You seem to be missing the irony of your conclusion.
Maybe you are extremely slanted…
And, see? There he is, right on time.
“Yes, of course. Monitor and control. Evidence of that abounds here: deletion of posts, rigging of up/down vote totals, ad extremely slanted opinions by and ardent defender.”
Tin foil much?
Let me guess. Anything that doesn’t match your OPINION is “extremely slanted by an ardent defender”.
Maybe you are extremely slanted…
Doesn't SAS have a communications specialist ("community manager", whatever) whose job it is to monitor social media and engage on behalf of the company?
Yes, of course. Monitor and control. Evidence of that abounds here: deletion of posts, rigging of up/down vote totals, ad extremely slanted opinions by and ardent defender.
That thread on LinkedIn is quite entertaining. BH's spiel with a list of employee likes is especially precious -- the cult of circlej--kers.
Folks publicly taking BH to the woodshed is a nice treat.
"Jim, Jim! The jig may be up! I keep giving them the party line but they're not buying it this time!"
That wasn't just the BG. He was a reflection of the organization, including the founder.
I blame that on the Big German, having witnessed his dismissive , arrogant, and rude behaviour with customers. He's the guy who should shoulder much of the blame for the sad state that SAS is in now.
Thanks, Bryan.
The guy who responded to BH and said "you can focus on your ideas on technology or you can focus on the needs of your customers" hit the nail on the head.
Ever since the launch of Viya, SAS has been far to absorbed by its own ideas, rather than spend time really listening to customers.
I blame that on the Big German, having witnessed his dismissive , arrogant, and rude behaviour with customers. He's the guy who should shoulder much of the blame for the sad state that SAS is in now.
Apparently, BG’s Legacy lives on!
Interesting that BH responded, summarizing well the company’s direction with Viya as its principal technology for data and AI. His response shows transparency, because even social media savvy tech professionals of 2025 can surely recognize the authority of a CTO over a corporate communications mouthpiece.
In two brief LinkedIn replies, BH provided a better elevator speech for potential investors than JC’s recent Wall Street media exposure. His is an attempt at addressing a primary question raised by ypthe LinkedIn OP: how is SAS stopping the bleeding from their declining V9 software revenue? BH offered Viya as the future of SAS, plus debt-free balance sheet as the compelling value prop for potential investors.
Bryan even gets credit for subtle yet solid marketing-speak by pitching SAS in VC-anointed “unicorn” language. Perhaps Jenn Chase should update her résumé given SAS’ history of combining two C-level EVP roles in a single human being?
The most interesting things to me about that post were:
- SAS's CTO replied not once, but twice. Doesn't SAS have a communications specialist ("community manager", whatever) whose job it is to monitor social media and engage on behalf of the company?
- One of the replies was from a SAS employee (or consultant) who basically told the author that he was wrong to come to the conclusion that he did. Way to listen to feedback from the customer, man.
“As seen somewhat widely on another platform, the decline explained by a customer:”
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/thorkiljohansen_sas-sasreplacement-altair-activity-7282715004183695361-7bH_
That’s an insightful customer. I’ve always wondered why SAS didn’t offer more low-cost versions, to compete with those who did.
Indeed, SAS had a wonderfully egalitarian culture — when they could afford it. But when revenues decline against costs, management must cut costs.
SAS is still gentler than most companies, as they are not trying to maximize profits. Any public company would do a mass layoff.
SAS may be cutting costs just enough to maintain profitability — an important selling point for an IPO.
"I think that the wonderful culture that we had at SAS did end. During the time that many people were ill, everyone was sent home, and we proved that working remotely works."
The culture ended long before the pandemic sent everyone home. I remember how at my orientation, HR made a big deal about how "everyone" worked for SAS - landscaping, cafeteria, housekeeping. And I noticed after I'd been there a few years, when housekeeping got outsourced. The people still had jobs, but they didn't work for SAS anymore; they worked for a company that was contracted to do the housekeeping. The new cafes in C, Q, and A (plus the renovated cafe in R) were outsourced to Au Bon Pain. Landscaping got outsourced. I think reception and building security got outsourced.
There was a change in vacation policy in 2017 (?) that meant once you hit your max, you couldn't accrue any more vacation hours. This was a change from simply losing hours if you were over the limit that you could carry over from one year to the next.
Outsourcing childcare to Bright Horizons I think came during the pandemic lockdown. I'm kinda surprised RFC staff haven't been outsourced. I also wonder about the HCC - having health care professionals on staff that people can go to for routine things probably does save SAS. If people can go to the HCC for vaccines, allergy shots, sore throats, and ear infections, they're not visiting PCPs off-site that might drive up premiums.
As seen somewhat widely on another platform, the decline explained by a customer https://www.linkedin.com/posts/thorkiljohansen_sas-sasreplacement-altair-activity-7282715004183695361-7bH_?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop
Flat gross revenue for nealy 10 years. Meanwhile all aspects related to the cost of doing business have increased. It does not take an economist to conclude that net profit is not growing .
Conclusion? Expect layoffs to continue.
Is it fair to call this the end? Maybe. Is it fair to call this the final chapter for SAS? Hope not but probably so.
The end happened a long time ago with the inception of what became to be known as Viya.
Viya has proved over and over again to be the wrong answer at the wrong time. That was the end of SAS as we knew it and certainly the end of the glory year for SAS.
The SAS of today is sputtering along on palliative care, dying a slow unproductive life of continual amputation. A loved one having less and less of the vigor, charm, and personality of its former self. Very sad to watch.
It was a fun 30 years until it wasn't.
If this is not yet the end, I can see it from here.
Yes, its the end. You voted for Trump. He won the popular vote!! This generation of Americans will go down in history as the d-mbest ever. Absolute id--ts.
"Same reason people watch C grade horror movies?"
You nailed it! That is the reason. 😱
You guys are out of control.
And based on that hyperbole, it looks like someone hit a nerve.
“ To try to control the narrative”
You guys are out of control. Like anyone is here to “control the narrative”
That is how weak minded beings describe anyone the don’t agree with.
“ Why are you here then? Don't you have something better to do with your time?”
I’m sure we all have something better to do with our time than this. Same reason people watch C grade horror movies?
Why are you here then?
To try to control the narrative.